With Sam and Chris
Series: Knowing God question time
Speaker: Sam Low
Date: 2nd March 2013
00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 A couple of questions that I think we can wrestle with a bit quickly.
00:00:03 --> 00:00:08 First one is, do we still call Jesus now that he's been exalted
00:00:08 --> 00:00:12 or does he go back to being a kind of pre-incarnation deity?
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 Because you'll remember we talked about how that's the point where God arrives or shows up.
00:00:18 --> 00:00:19 It's not the beginning of him.
00:00:20 --> 00:00:22 So the answer I have is yes and yes.
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26 So yes, we still call Jesus now.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:30 He still referred to Jesus post-resurrection by New Testament writers.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33 So I think that is perfectly acceptable.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:38 And yes, he does return to his pre-incarnation deity
00:00:38 --> 00:00:41 because in John 17 he prays that he'll return to the glory that he had
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 before the creation of the world with the Father.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:49 So that's correct, but I don't think it's wrong to refer to him as Jesus.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 He's referred to as multiple things in the New Testament.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:55 So in Revelation he's referred to as the Lamb quite regularly,
00:00:55 --> 00:00:59 but that doesn't negate the title Jesus or the title Christ particularly
00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 because his death and resurrection proves him to be the Christ
00:01:02 --> 00:01:07 and then he sits on the throne as Christ, as Lord and King.
00:01:08 --> 00:01:10 So hopefully that's a short, sharp one.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:17 Will Jesus be in human form, a glorified human form, in heaven
00:01:17 --> 00:01:20 or will he be physically different from us?
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 That's a great question.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:29 And there's a bunch of scriptures that I want to point to really, really quickly.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 Philippians 3 is one that comes to mind
00:01:32 --> 00:01:38 which talks about our desire to eventually be with God.
00:01:38 --> 00:01:39 It's Paul straining towards heaven.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:44 And he says this, verse 20 of chapter 3,
00:01:44 --> 00:02:03 So there is some likeness between what Jesus now has
00:02:03 --> 00:02:07 and what we will have in our new bodies when we get to heaven.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:13 1 Corinthians 15 is another passage that talks about how the new bodies we get are going to be better
00:02:13 --> 00:02:17 and that all the sickness and stuff is taken out
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 and it talks about how it used to be perishable and it would be imperishable.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:25 Yeah, so I think that's my answer.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 Yes, I think it will be in human form
00:02:27 --> 00:02:31 because the risen Jesus who appears to the disciples
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 is the same risen Jesus now.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 There's no communication in scripture that he changes.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 I think the vision of the Lamb in Revelation is a vision
00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 reminding us that he was the one who was slain.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 But my read, and I'm open to Chris pushing on this,
00:02:46 --> 00:02:50 is that he will have a human form that is glorified.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:52 Do you want to...?
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55 I think it's really significant that he's taken humanity into heaven.
00:02:56 --> 00:02:58 But I think it's humanity, not all of humanity.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:01 Thank you.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:06 It's just really significant that Jesus has taken humanity,
00:03:06 --> 00:03:07 but perfect humanity into heaven.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 And he is the perfect person that we're not.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 But he opens the door for us being there with him through what he's done.
00:03:17 --> 00:03:17 Yep.
00:03:17 --> 00:03:24 Another one which hopefully I can do pseudo-quickly.
00:03:24 --> 00:03:27 Question, in terms of salvation, when do we receive the Holy Spirit?
00:03:29 --> 00:03:32 This is a good question and a controversial one as well.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:37 What happens is, so when Jesus talks to Nicodemus in John 3,
00:03:37 --> 00:03:42 he says that to have eternal life we need to be born again.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:46 We need to be born of the Spirit, and that's what we call being regenerated.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 So we're told in scripture that we're dead in sin,
00:03:49 --> 00:03:54 and we need to be made alive to then begin our relationship with God.
00:03:54 --> 00:04:02 That is the work of the Holy Spirit, that regeneration which enables us to see Jesus as Christ
00:04:02 --> 00:04:06 and to repent of our sins and place our trust in him.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:10 It does also say in Ephesians 1, for example,
00:04:10 --> 00:04:15 that having believed, you were marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:19 And so I think it's important to understand that it's the Spirit that works.
00:04:20 --> 00:04:23 God uses the Spirit to bring the benefits of Christ to us.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:28 But in terms of receiving it, I think you receive it at the point of salvation,
00:04:29 --> 00:04:31 although I think that's a blurry line.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:35 So is the point of salvation when you pray a prayer to say,
00:04:35 --> 00:04:39 I want to be a Christian, or is the point of salvation when God begins to change your heart
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 so that you can get to a point where you want to pray a prayer like that?
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 I think that's all the point of salvation.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:50 I agree with you, but I think for some of us,
00:04:50 --> 00:04:53 we haven't got a clear point where we know we were in Christ.
00:04:53 --> 00:04:55 Some of us have been raised in Christian families.
00:04:55 --> 00:04:59 Others of us have come to Christ maybe over a period of time.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:03 And clearly it's the Spirit's work in both drawing us to Christ,
00:05:03 --> 00:05:05 convicting us of sin, and then keeping us in Christ.
00:05:06 --> 00:05:10 And so God's Spirit's at work at every point in one way.
00:05:11 --> 00:05:15 I probably think against the idea of a special reception of him.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:21 If you're a believer, he's at work in you, and his power is fully at work in you.
00:05:22 --> 00:05:26 But we might quench him, or what's the other word?
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 Well, there's a question in that direction, so let's continue in that direction,
00:05:29 --> 00:05:30 and you can continue answering it.
00:05:30 --> 00:05:31 No, no, you can go. You're doing well.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 The question was, is the Spirit working within us 24-7,
00:05:35 --> 00:05:38 or does the percentage of his involvement in our lives fluctuate?
00:05:38 --> 00:05:43 So you're on a good direction, I think.
00:05:43 --> 00:05:49 My head feels a bit dead, but I think I answered this one online the other day,
00:05:49 --> 00:05:53 and I think the Spirit is always there.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:54 He doesn't come and go.
00:05:54 --> 00:06:00 I think our sensitivity to his voice and our obedience to his voice and to his leading,
00:06:00 --> 00:06:01 that's what fluctuates.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 So there's fluctuation in us.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:06 Like sometimes we just downright say no to God.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:11 And when we say no to God, we're actually rejecting the work of his Spirit in us in that moment.
00:06:12 --> 00:06:14 Now, I'm not talking about being cast out of the kingdom,
00:06:14 --> 00:06:19 but that's what a disobedient walk looks like at that point.
00:06:19 --> 00:06:26 I make a decision sometimes day by day not to do something that I really know I should do.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:29 When I do that, I'm actually sort of saying I'll take control right here,
00:06:29 --> 00:06:31 and you can sit in the passenger seat for a while,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:35 and then you wear the consequences.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:37 Yeah, I think it's helpful.
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 So I'm guessing that this might come out of a passage like Ephesians 5,
00:06:41 --> 00:06:44 which says do not get drunk on wine, but be filled with the Spirit.
00:06:45 --> 00:06:48 I think it's important to remember as we've worked through this series
00:06:48 --> 00:06:49 that the Spirit is a person.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 It's not just a force or something like that.
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 And so to think that we have more of a person or less of a person
00:06:56 --> 00:06:58 is maybe not a helpful way to think about it.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00 The Spirit dwells in us according to the Scriptures,
00:07:01 --> 00:07:03 and I think it's more an issue of our submission to him
00:07:03 --> 00:07:07 than how much of him we may or may not have.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 Is there any from the floor before we keep going through?
00:07:12 --> 00:07:13 Anyone want to...
00:07:14 --> 00:07:14 Yeah?
00:07:17 --> 00:07:18 I'm going to throw the mark down in that direction.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:20 Oh, sorry.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:26 So one of the most striking points that you made during this series,
00:07:26 --> 00:07:30 for me, was the fact that Jesus existed before he was born here,
00:07:30 --> 00:07:33 and you pointed out tonight that the three,
00:07:34 --> 00:07:35 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, were eternal.
00:07:37 --> 00:07:40 So what was the role then of Jesus
00:07:40 --> 00:07:44 before he arrived on that Christmas day 2 years ago?
00:07:44 --> 00:07:50 So the Bible, like, talks about him coming in the future,
00:07:50 --> 00:07:54 but does that mean that Jesus didn't have any role for those people
00:07:54 --> 00:07:58 before he was born on earth?
00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 That is a sensational question.
00:08:00 --> 00:08:01 I'm happy to have a crack,
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 and then I'll defer to the wiser member of the panel.
00:08:04 --> 00:08:09 I think that one of the things that we've done in this series
00:08:09 --> 00:08:12 is looked at the relationships between Father, Son, and Spirit,
00:08:12 --> 00:08:15 and it's helpful to remember that those relationships are eternal.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:19 So the Son existed in submission to the Father's will,
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 which ultimately was that he would come, die, and rise again.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:26 But the Father had a will before that as well.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 Jesus is pointed to as an agent of creation quite a few times in Scripture.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 So through him all things were created.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 To nail down specific things that he was doing
00:08:37 --> 00:08:41 in the period between creation and him coming in human form,
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 I'm not sure that Scripture is really explicit on that,
00:08:45 --> 00:08:51 but I think he was actively loving the Father
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 and submitting to the Father for all of that period.
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 The content of what that looked like I've struggled to nail down.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:06 When Jacob wrestles with God, is that Jesus or is that an angel or something else?
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 Great question.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:12 Do you want to...
00:09:12 --> 00:09:19 Yeah, you're a couple of weeks in.
00:09:19 --> 00:09:19 You've got this covered.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:28 Yeah, so the question was when Jacob wrestles with God in Genesis,
00:09:29 --> 00:09:34 that is that Jesus or is that an angel or is that...
00:09:36 --> 00:09:38 Well, I guess you've got to answer from the text,
00:09:38 --> 00:09:40 and the text doesn't tell us, but it's tantalising, isn't it,
00:09:40 --> 00:09:42 when you read it, because you really wonder
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 if he's wrestled with God in human form and is that Jesus.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 But Jesus is not revealed as Jesus until you get to the New Testament.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:51 But it doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't in operation
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 through the Old Testament even before that.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 And Sam's question, answer before I agree with,
00:09:56 --> 00:09:58 there's two purple passages for Jeff,
00:09:58 --> 00:10:01 John chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1,
00:10:01 --> 00:10:03 in terms of Jesus existing before he was born.
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 And Sam quoted it and he said,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 he's the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over...
00:10:09 --> 00:10:11 This is Colossians 1, 15.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:13 The firstborn over all creation.
00:10:14 --> 00:10:16 For by him all things were created,
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
00:10:19 --> 00:10:21 whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities.
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 All things were created by him and for him.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:25 So it's not just him creating everything.
00:10:26 --> 00:10:28 It's making this grand statement
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 that the whole creation's been brought into being for him.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:34 Not quite sure exactly what that means,
00:10:34 --> 00:10:36 but it's a big picture statement
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 about the importance of Jesus,
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 his role in creation and what it's for.
00:10:41 --> 00:10:44 In the end, Philippians 2,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:47 every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:52 So every single created knee will bow to the Lord Jesus.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 That's the summing up at the end to his lordship.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 And then, 1 Corinthians 15,
00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 he will hand over the kingdom to his father.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:01 Yep.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:05 If I was going to throw in a thought
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07 based on the rest of what scripture says,
00:11:07 --> 00:11:09 I think your whispered answer down here is,
00:11:09 --> 00:11:13 I think that it's probably not Jesus in human form
00:11:13 --> 00:11:14 for the reason that Chris said,
00:11:14 --> 00:11:17 because he's revealed in human form at his incarnation
00:11:17 --> 00:11:18 when he is born to Mary.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:21 So in terms of exactly what it is,
00:11:21 --> 00:11:22 I'd be more nervous,
00:11:22 --> 00:11:24 but an angel is probably not a bad suggestion.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:25 Yeah.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 As a representative of God in the Old Testament.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:31 Any other questions?
00:11:31 --> 00:11:32 There is more on here.
00:11:32 --> 00:11:33 Yep.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:40 Can you talk about how the spirit glorifies the son
00:11:40 --> 00:11:41 and the son glorifies the father,
00:11:42 --> 00:11:46 and then how the father goes back in glorifying the son.
00:11:47 --> 00:11:52 Does the spirit ever end up with any glory or recognition?
00:11:52 --> 00:11:55 I know, I don't want to just like side with like the underdog spirit,
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 but like I just feel like it's a chain that goes up,
00:11:58 --> 00:12:03 but I don't feel like the spirit gets any glory as like an end in itself.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:10 I think understanding what we mean when we talk about glory will probably help us a little bit in that.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:14 So glory is ultimately the revealing of who God is.
00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 And so even in John 17, the prayer,
00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 Father, glorify your son, that your son may glorify you.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 What Jesus is praying is,
00:12:21 --> 00:12:26 show me to be God the son so that I can show people you as God the father.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:32 And the spirit's primary role is to reveal Jesus as God,
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 remembering that he is God himself.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 In terms of direct towards the spirit,
00:12:38 --> 00:12:43 I'm not sure that he does get focused on in the way that the father and the son do,
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45 but that doesn't reduce the fact that he is God.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:45 He is eternal.
00:12:46 --> 00:12:46 He is all-knowing.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 He is completely God and fully God.
00:12:49 --> 00:12:52 And like we keep saying, he's equal with father and son,
00:12:52 --> 00:12:54 even though he's not the focus of what's happening.
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 But I think there's, like I said tonight,
00:12:57 --> 00:13:02 there's no even whisper in scripture that that's in any way negative for the spirit.
00:13:02 --> 00:13:07 The spirit is very satisfied and content in his work
00:13:07 --> 00:13:12 and feels full of the love of the father and the son.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:14 So, I don't know.
00:13:20 --> 00:13:24 I think Jesus is the most tangible expression of God that he has given us
00:13:24 --> 00:13:26 in that he is God in the flesh.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:28 Spirit is hidden to some extent,
00:13:28 --> 00:13:33 except we see his impact in our lives and in the lives of people around us
00:13:33 --> 00:13:34 and in the world.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:36 The father in heaven is hidden
00:13:36 --> 00:13:40 and Jesus himself is the one who really helps us to see
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 what the hidden God of the universe is like.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:44 And I think for me,
00:13:44 --> 00:13:46 that's been the most special thing
00:13:46 --> 00:13:48 that's come through in the whole series.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:49 I've been preaching in the morning,
00:13:49 --> 00:13:50 Sam's been preaching at night,
00:13:50 --> 00:13:53 but the whole notion that lots of people say they believe in God
00:13:53 --> 00:13:54 and they have a sense of God.
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 And so, when I spoke to one of my friends the other week,
00:13:58 --> 00:13:58 who's a doctor,
00:13:58 --> 00:13:58 he said,
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 I've had the privilege of cutting people open
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 and I could never conceive that there's not a God.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:04 But I said,
00:14:04 --> 00:14:07 that's just like a Muslim who says he can't conceive there's not a God.
00:14:08 --> 00:14:09 So, how do you get to the character of the real God?
00:14:10 --> 00:14:11 Well, the way you find out about the character
00:14:11 --> 00:14:13 and the nature and the person of the real God
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 is through Jesus who reveals him.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:16 So, what do I want to say to my friends?
00:14:16 --> 00:14:18 Come to Jesus and find out about what...
00:14:18 --> 00:14:20 You're perceiving something which is really true,
00:14:21 --> 00:14:23 but come and find out what he's really like
00:14:23 --> 00:14:24 and you find out through Jesus.
00:14:25 --> 00:14:26 Can I say something controversial?
00:14:26 --> 00:14:27 Please do.
00:14:28 --> 00:14:29 Controversial one on the spirit is,
00:14:30 --> 00:14:34 I challenge you to go and see anywhere in the Bible
00:14:34 --> 00:14:36 where the spirit is prayed to as a person.
00:14:37 --> 00:14:39 I don't think you'll find it,
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 but I'm happy for you to come and shove it under my nose
00:14:42 --> 00:14:43 and say, here it is here.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:45 I think you see prayers like,
00:14:45 --> 00:14:47 we pray to Jesus asking him to send his spirit on us
00:14:47 --> 00:14:49 and to work in us and through the church.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:51 We pray to the Father,
00:14:51 --> 00:14:52 send the spirit and work in us through the church.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 But I don't think you see prayers saying,
00:14:56 --> 00:14:58 dear Holy Spirit, work amongst us.
00:14:59 --> 00:15:01 And if you pray a prayer like that,
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03 I don't think you're thrown out of the Christian family,
00:15:03 --> 00:15:06 but I think it's worth pondering in terms of how God operates
00:15:06 --> 00:15:07 and how God is revealed to us in the scripture.
00:15:09 --> 00:15:10 I think that's helpful.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:12 I know if you've got one,
00:15:12 --> 00:15:14 I was going to say others will keep wandering down that track.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:17 Sorry, just in regards to that comment,
00:15:17 --> 00:15:20 does that mean that the spirit doesn't have a will
00:15:20 --> 00:15:24 or does the spirit also have a will like Jesus and the Father do?
00:15:25 --> 00:15:27 I would say, again,
00:15:27 --> 00:15:29 scripture doesn't go into heaps of detail
00:15:29 --> 00:15:31 on the person of the spirit and the way it does,
00:15:31 --> 00:15:31 Father and Son.
00:15:32 --> 00:15:33 But I think because he is God,
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 he has all the attributes of God,
00:15:36 --> 00:15:37 including a will.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 Father and Son have wills,
00:15:40 --> 00:15:42 but it's also a shared will
00:15:42 --> 00:15:43 in that they're so unified
00:15:43 --> 00:15:46 and I think the spirit is the same.
00:15:47 --> 00:15:47 But again,
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 I would struggle to find a place in scripture
00:15:49 --> 00:15:50 that kind of unpacks that
00:15:50 --> 00:15:52 because the spirit really does
00:15:52 --> 00:15:55 work backstage for want of a better term.
00:15:56 --> 00:15:57 It's probably not a great word,
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59 but the idea is he kind of stays out of the mainframe
00:15:59 --> 00:16:00 as much as possible
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 because he's just trying to point to Jesus.
00:16:03 --> 00:16:05 Would that then apply to praying to the Son?
00:16:06 --> 00:16:08 Would we not pray to the Son either because of that?
00:16:08 --> 00:16:10 I think,
00:16:11 --> 00:16:12 so I actually think,
00:16:12 --> 00:16:13 like Chris said,
00:16:13 --> 00:16:14 I don't think it's going to get you kicked out
00:16:14 --> 00:16:15 praying to the spirit
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 and I think praying to Jesus is the same.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:18 But the instruction,
00:16:19 --> 00:16:20 the only time we're ever instructed
00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 on how to pray by Jesus is
00:16:22 --> 00:16:23 our Father in heaven.
00:16:23 --> 00:16:25 And I think given the stuff we've looked at,
00:16:25 --> 00:16:26 that the spirit and Son come
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 to draw us in to that relationship
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 so we can call him our Father.
00:16:31 --> 00:16:32 It's a privileged position
00:16:32 --> 00:16:34 to be able to pray to our Father
00:16:34 --> 00:16:37 and it's one to make the most of.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 So I don't think it's wrong to pray to Jesus
00:16:39 --> 00:16:40 or to pray to the spirit,
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43 but seeing a scripture encourages me
00:16:43 --> 00:16:44 towards praying to the Father.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:45 That's where I think.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:49 Chris may have a passage.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:51 Oh, look out.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:53 Acts chapter 7,
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 as Stephen's dying,
00:16:55 --> 00:16:55 he's been stoned to death.
00:16:56 --> 00:16:57 Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 And I'm not sure there's some other places as well,
00:17:00 --> 00:17:01 but that's a clear example.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:03 But I'd say it's happening,
00:17:03 --> 00:17:05 but it's not instructed in the way that Matthew...
00:17:05 --> 00:17:06 Oh, no, no, no.
00:17:06 --> 00:17:07 It's not instruction,
00:17:07 --> 00:17:08 but it's there in the scriptures happening
00:17:08 --> 00:17:10 and you see it and it's real.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:13 Can I have a go to another question,
00:17:13 --> 00:17:14 which I know is on the list?
00:17:14 --> 00:17:14 Please do.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17 Somebody asked the question about
00:17:17 --> 00:17:19 where you see the spirit at work in Revelation
00:17:19 --> 00:17:21 because it seems pretty quiet.
00:17:22 --> 00:17:23 And in the book of Revelation,
00:17:23 --> 00:17:24 you do see the spirit
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 working with the three churches
00:17:28 --> 00:17:30 in Revelation chapter 1 to 3,
00:17:30 --> 00:17:31 2 and 3 in particular,
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 what the spirit says to the churches.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 And then there's some really...
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39 The pictures of God in Revelation,
00:17:40 --> 00:17:41 a couple of the key pictures of God
00:17:41 --> 00:17:42 for me in Revelation
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 are in Revelation 5,
00:17:44 --> 00:17:45 when worthy is the Lamb who was slain.
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49 The Lamb is worshipped
00:17:49 --> 00:17:50 and the last song is,
00:17:50 --> 00:17:52 to him who is seated on the throne
00:17:52 --> 00:17:53 and to the Lamb,
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 be praise and glory and honour.
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 So it's like father and son
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59 worshipped together as one,
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 not the two persons in the one place
00:18:03 --> 00:18:04 worshipped as one.
00:18:04 --> 00:18:06 And then in Revelation 21, 22,
00:18:07 --> 00:18:08 I think 21,
00:18:09 --> 00:18:10 there's no need for a temple in heaven
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 because him who is on the throne
00:18:13 --> 00:18:15 and the Lamb are its temple.
00:18:15 --> 00:18:17 The presence of God is with his people
00:18:17 --> 00:18:19 and it's expressed as the two there.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:22 And I can't go further than that
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24 other than we clearly presume
00:18:24 --> 00:18:25 the spirit's at work
00:18:25 --> 00:18:27 and so when things emanate from the throne,
00:18:27 --> 00:18:28 it's the power of God,
00:18:28 --> 00:18:29 it's the person of God,
00:18:29 --> 00:18:30 it's the spirit of God
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32 that is still at work.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34 But again, there's a hiddenness to him
00:18:34 --> 00:18:35 in Revelation.
00:18:35 --> 00:18:37 But in saying there's a hiddenness,
00:18:37 --> 00:18:38 that's not to presume at all
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40 that he's not there and at work.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:43 I think we're getting tight on time.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:43 Would that be correct?
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 All right, just to wrap up,
00:18:46 --> 00:18:48 I just want to affirm again
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 that as we've kept saying
00:18:50 --> 00:18:51 throughout this series,
00:18:51 --> 00:18:52 this isn't the final word.
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 This isn't exhaustive
00:18:54 --> 00:18:55 on the character of God
00:18:55 --> 00:18:56 and that's something
00:18:56 --> 00:18:58 that we can be thankful for,
00:18:58 --> 00:18:59 that God is bigger
00:18:59 --> 00:18:59 and more wonderful
00:18:59 --> 00:19:00 and there's more for us
00:19:00 --> 00:19:01 to keep discovering
00:19:01 --> 00:19:02 and rejoicing in
00:19:02 --> 00:19:03 and being thankful for
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 until he comes again
00:19:05 --> 00:19:06 and shows us everything.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:08 So I encourage you to keep digging.
00:19:08 --> 00:19:08 If you had questions
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 that we didn't get to tonight,
00:19:10 --> 00:19:11 I'm happy to hang around.