Why Vacation Bible School Might Be the Most Important Week of the Year: Zack Carden | Episode 288

[00:00:06] Water slides, worship songs, glue sticks, and cheesy skits. It's time for Vacation Bible School. Welcome to Candid Conversations. I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef, and today we're talking all things VBS. Over two and a half million people enroll in VBS each summer nationwide, and it's more than fun and games.

[00:00:29] With 83% of Christians making their first commitment to Christ between the ages of 3 and 13, this ministry matters. I couldn't have this conversation without my friend and fellow pastor, Zack Carden. And Zack, you've been on two, maybe three times. You did a Father's Day episode with us.

[00:00:50] We talked about your Gray Bobby Ministries, which is getting biblical content to kids, and we'll make sure we put some Gray Bobby stuff in the show notes for people so they can... Gray Bobby would love that. Hopefully Gray Bobby makes an appearance in our topic today because we're talking about VBS, Vacation Bible School. Vacation Bible School. Which is kind of your... Forte? Area of expertise? How do we phrase that?

[00:01:20] I think that it was one of those situations where you never grow up. I mean, a job where you get to put on a costume and act like somebody else. That's the dream. That's just a dream. We've joked about this, but you could have easily have gone into children's entertainment as your professional gig. The Lord has called you into ministry, but you've found a way to blend the two things so wonderfully. I will blend them as long as I can do that.

[00:01:46] So just for those who are listening, tell us, when did your desire for, let's say, conveying biblical truths to kids? Like, when did that start? I remember when it was. So it started with my kids. Like, I knew that I wanted to pass my faith on to my kids. So that was a big part of it. But I remember the point where I realized that it was more than just me at home with my kids and doing stuff for them at home. Yeah.

[00:02:14] Like creating catechism songs and all that for them. We did music camp at a church I was at in Chattanooga. And I was told, you know how it goes when you're working in church. You're told this much and then you're giving them. Well, you're told, hey, you're going to be teaching the kids Bible stories during the week. And I'm like, thanks. What's the curriculum? It's yours. It's yours. Whatever you want to do. I'm like, great. So I started teaching the kids and we had a blast with them.

[00:02:43] And I remember how impactful that was. It's kind of one of those things where you don't know that you are gifted in an area until you're kind of thrown into it. And I was just thrown into it. I had no idea. I hadn't really worked with kids before that. I had done rec at other – you know, that's the typical job when you're the youth guy. You do the recreational stuff. Bats and balls out. You give them the easy thing. So at the end of that, people had said, you know, that inward-outward call, right? You experienced that draw. And then people notice. Yeah.

[00:03:11] And people were noticing and saying, hey, it's a confirmation that you might be gifted at this. And so for the next three years, I was the guy that did just the lessons. Yeah. And then when I moved to Kennesaw to a church, I was in charge of the VBS. And it was in backyards. So it was a completely different context. Yeah. And then finally at Apostles. I was bummed when I came to Apostles, actually, because my job was to work with college students. Yeah. And I really enjoyed working with college students.

[00:03:41] It's one of the best seasons of ministry in my life. But I was going to miss the kids. And then Connie decided she was going to pull me in. And I was going to be the emcee. And then one day, the lesson went short. And I had to step up to the plate. And one of the ladies was just like, okay, we need more content. So I just, I was like, okay, here we go. And just from then on, I was teaching. Yeah. So it's been a process, but it's been fun.

[00:04:10] So what was kind of your own experience growing up at Jattanooga? Did you do VBS? I did not. My grandmother wanted me to. Okay. So she always wanted me to come to her VBS at her church. And I just thought VBS sounds like a disease. Isn't that funny? You ended up being the guy. I ended up being the guy. Like God's sense of humor is amazing. I mean, I was the kid that didn't want to go to church on Sunday. In fact, I was going to, before the Cartoon Network existed. Right.

[00:04:37] My whole desire was I want to start a cartoon day for Sunday so they can have cartoons on Saturday and Sunday. There you go. So those of us who want to skip church. So you created Gray Bobby. So I created Gray Bobby. That's more to pull them back in. But yeah, I did not want to go. I was not interested in spiritual things as a child. And God just got me along the way and here I am.

[00:05:03] But there's great benefits to it when you do go and you do experience. Yeah. So I think a lot of our listeners right now are even probably remembering their time at VBS. Great memories. Now, there are people who will be similar to you where they haven't. They either never did it, so they don't know. So tell us a little bit about like what were the things that you started to see? You can even talk about through the years that you've run different VBSs. What are the things that you begin to see in kids that's just kind of moves your heart? So it's interesting.

[00:05:34] You've got two sides of that. Okay. So you've got the kids that go and you've got the kids that help. And I think that probably a side of VBS, it's kind of maybe the shadow blessing of VBS, is the teen helpers, the teen volunteers. That volunteer team, yeah. To see them come in, and it's been over a number of different churches, to see them come in and benefit from using their own gifts. And because I'm a big believer that using your gifts deepens your faith.

[00:06:02] And one of the most radical things I learned in seminary, which wasn't really radical, but it was radical to me, was that when you use your gifts, that people want to use their gifts. And part of discipleship is to use your gifts. Yeah. I always thought, well, we don't want to bother people, right? We just want to make it a good experience for them to come in. We don't want to bother them. Right. But what deepens their faith is being able to be used of the Lord. And you see that in the lives of these teen volunteers especially. It's discipleship on steroids that week, right?

[00:06:32] You're having fun. They're enjoying their time there. Right. But they're also learning to. And again, they're getting to use the gifts that God has given them. And they're feeling a fulfillment they never felt when they were sitting in the seats. Sure. Yeah. Being a recipient. Yeah. Right. But for kids, the best thing about VBS, it's the spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. You know, there's a lot of deep theological truths that are hard to get your brain around.

[00:06:57] But when you interject story and you interject video, you interject music, it just packages it in a way that kids can receive. Yeah. What I've seen is I've seen kids really begin to understand what the gospel is. The way the week is set up, typically the gospel moment comes that day before the last day. And to get to that point to see I'm a sinner and needed a savior is really a precious moment.

[00:07:26] There's something – and tell me if you've seen this as well. There's something to even the – you know, you're talking about the teenagers who are coming in and volunteering and maybe even some of the adults. There's this – when the gospel is simplified, there's a receiving from older iterations of participants and people involved. I mean, I remember in Australia we would hear people's testimonies and they would say, I actually came to faith because I was in church, but it was the kids' talk at the beginning of the service. Yeah.

[00:07:55] That was made abundantly clear to me. You know, I don't know – I don't understand the preacher when he gets up and uses all his big words. But the simplicity of it. That would be what people said about me. He talks too fast. You know, so – Trying to get you to lunch. I'm trying to get you to lunch. I can talk slower, but it's going to cut into your lunchtime. You want to beat the Baptists to lunch. Trying to get them there. What's interesting is we do – and I have done something called the box.

[00:08:23] And the box is where a family brings an object in the box and then on the spot I have to come up with a spiritual application for it. I have not seen it. Don't know what it is. And I did it at a church before I came to Apostles. And people said, I get a whole lot out of that. They didn't say we get a lot out of your sermons when you preach, but they would say we get a lot out of that. Just this last Sunday, we had one where it was Listerine strips.

[00:08:53] And so I told them, being the child of a dentist – It was your wheelhouse. It was my wheelhouse. What Listerine does is it not only covers over the offending odor, it also eliminates the source of it. And so you go to, you know, Christ covers over our sin, but he also – he justifies us, but he also sanctifies us. He changes us from the inside out, begins to remove what it is that causes us to be disobedient. The source.

[00:09:21] And so, you know, I preached that day, but my daughter says, I really, really like that. People are walking out. It's still a compliment at the end of the day. It's so funny. I spend time on this sermon. I'm going to do this Mother's Day sermon. I really loved the thing you said for two and a half minutes versus the 30-minute. I love the thing you came up like, so maybe I should just do this for the sermon, right? That's fantastic. Yeah, there is something to that.

[00:09:47] There's something to simplicity, to the point, illustrative, you know, and I know that's really big for you. You know, even the use of technology, using videos. It is a little bit funny that you were trying to find a way to create cartoons for Sunday. Yes. And you use them because it is. You know, my kids love all of your stuff, and they're just like, please, can we watch another Gray Bobby episode? Because it's funny.

[00:10:13] It engages their different emotions, and it's teaching them all the while. In a lot of your stuff, you always have kind of that moment of reflection or review. Right. Which is the pertinent thing, right? Yeah, the what did we learn today? What did you say? Yeah, what stuck to you? Yeah. That's so good. But let's talk about some of these statistics that our teams kind of did some great research. So you've got 83% of Christians make their first commitment to Christ between the ages of 3 and 13. I can see that.

[00:10:41] That's not necessarily VBS, but it would definitely have a – I mean, if you think about that teen volunteer alongside the elementary school. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's the window. It is. It's a very significant window, and so churches really need to be intentional about how they consider that. Over 2.5 million people enroll in VBS annually. You and I thought that number might be a little lower than it actually is, but that's okay. 51% of VBS attendees are unchurched.

[00:11:10] That's pretty significant. Sounds right. Yeah. Because if you think about it, they don't want to come to church, but they'll – I mean, they'll come to a camp thing. And there is the dangling carrot, right, of, hey, I'm a mom. What are you going to do with your kids in the summer? Three hours of peace. I have three hours of peace here. Here, take my children. Drop them off. It's very cheap. And then they're tired when you pick them back up. So it's a bonus. Yeah. Unless they've had too much sugar. And I think generally, what would we say? People are generally moral, right? Yes.

[00:11:40] So they're going, I'm okay with y'all teaching them to be good to – yeah, certainly be good to their siblings. When I was at another church, we had an Islamic couple who had their kids. Wow. When we did our end-of-week cookout, we had to make sure that we had non-port hot dogs. Hello. Hello. Hello, hot dogs. I was like, I was unsure about what was in the hot dogs, but we had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Good option.

[00:12:08] But it's interesting that knowing full well we're a Christian ministry, people of different walks of life will put their kids in vacation Bible school. Yeah. Yeah. You do wonder if it's like, do they think we'll have to un-teach these things? Or they're like, you know what? It's fine. It's good for them to learn different things anyway. I don't know. I don't know. You can't speak to this as a small person. I can't speak to it coming from a Christian parent perspective.

[00:12:37] But it's helpful to think about that perspective and consider these statistics as a family person who's perhaps putting your kids in VBS and thinking, hmm, who could we invite? Yes. And not think, well, I need to invite people who are already at church or at another church. Most VBSs have the gospel moment. Yeah. And if you're only keeping it for the people of the church, then you're missing out. Yeah. On inviting people. It's the lowest hanging fruit you can get.

[00:13:04] You know, inviting someone to some fun week where you're going to do all this great stuff versus inviting them to church. And there's, you know, they're going to build friendships. They're learning. Yeah. Their bodies are being active, so they're coming home tired. Right. They need that kind of sense of play. Their T-shirt smells really bad by the end of the week. They should provide five T-shirts. I know they should.

[00:13:27] But this statistic actually carries over that thought that we're sharing, which is 69% of parents would allow their children to attend VBS if invited. Yeah. That's telling. And it's significant and telling. It's the fact that we're not inviting them. Right. That's exactly it. Reach out. I mean, you know number of people in your school, in your community, offer to take them.

[00:13:52] One of the best things that we found when we did, it was by necessity because the church I worked at, we had the backyard VBSs, is that we didn't have a building. We rented a building on Sunday morning. So we had to have houses. It was very natural to invite people from the community. It's right there. It's right there. It's their house. And it ended up being a blessing.

[00:14:16] You got even more unbelieving families because, hey, we know this family. Yeah, we can go down the street. We'll go to their house. We go to their house all the time. That's right. So yeah, we'll go to your house and do VBS there. And that is a type, right? It's kind of the backyard Bible club. There's day VBS. There's night VBS. Yes, which we've often, you know, churches think about because you're getting the whole family then. You're bringing them in and you get to do something.

[00:14:41] If you have the facilities to do it, where we are, we need our whole facility just to do, you know, something for the elementary school kids. Yeah. But if you've got the facility to do it, then you can run it and then do something significant for parents. Yeah. Because now here's a time when they don't have anything and do something for marriage or parenting or whatever that's going to scratch that itch. Do you have any kind of anecdotal story around perhaps – because I do know that this happens.

[00:15:10] I can't think of any off my head, but of kids who came, loved it, built friendships and wanted to say, I wanted to still see these people during the school year. Oh, yeah. Family begins to come. There are a number of students that do come and join in. You know, what could be the disconnect is when you – if you don't do something like that during the week. So it becomes kind of a bait and switch, right? So if you do something fun – They're like, where's this? Yeah, where's the fun? Yeah.

[00:15:35] And I'm a big proponent of making it fun, not at the expense of the truth, but as you know with the Greybobby stuff, you've got to make it fun, funny, engaging, entertaining, but also truthful in what it teaches. It's a balance, right? It's a balance. Just be fun and no teaching. Right. Not just teaching and kids are – It's like a sermon. You've got to throw in illustrations so people will stick with you and understand what you're talking about. I remember one particular VBS.

[00:16:03] It was actually a teen volunteer that ended up staying with the youth group because I was doing youth ministry, and I was working with the teen volunteers, and she felt so connected that she kept coming. But we saw that, kids that would come and stick. Like, one of our – I guess this is kind of a trade secret – when we do the box is I'm constantly telling my daughter who does the children's ministry, give it to somebody who's new. Give it to a new family. Yeah. Because – They're paying particular attention.

[00:16:31] Well, then they have to come back next month because we do it once a month, right? So they've got to come back next month, and it gives them a second try at being a part of our group. Right. So something about that, it really does kind of pull in kids. And you don't see everybody come back, right?

[00:16:50] But you do see – we saw a family this summer that came to RVBS that is now – because they were invited by another family, and they were invited by that family to our church, and now they're coming regularly. Wow. Follow-up, is that an intentional thing that you kind of tackle? So VBS has happened. Hey, that was fun. Great. Then you've got to invite. I think that we live in a culture where people are – we deal with it, and I know that Apostles deals with it.

[00:17:19] And when I was at Apostles, we dealt with it. People giving you their information, it's – they don't want to do it anymore. Yeah. There has to be a trade-off. And when you've got their information, if you're not respectful with their information, then – Unsubscribe. Unsubscribe. So you've got to be strategic in what you send as a follow-up. You know, hey, I'm a big believer that you invite them to the next event. So to have the next event on the calendar and say, hey, here's the next thing that we're doing here.

[00:17:48] Hopefully you enjoyed what we were doing. Yeah. Here's the next thing that we've got going on. And we would love to invite you and your family. And then just kind of leave it at that. Okay. You're building your VBS. You're putting all the stuff together. What are the must-have essential elements? You know, let's say people are listening to this and they're considering a couple of different options, different churches maybe. What are the things that are like they have to have this? Depends on the size of your church and your volunteer base.

[00:18:15] Because if you are a large church, like Church of the Apostles, you still need a bunch of volunteers. Because Apostles runs anywhere from, you know, 400 to 600 kids. That's just monumental. I know of churches that have like 1,000 kids. Yeah. Yeah. And you need a huge volunteer base. But then there's smaller churches. What I would want to say to the smaller churches is just because you're a small church, don't not do it. Right. You know, 25 kids is still significant. It is.

[00:18:42] Compared to, you know, you may not be pulling in 300, 500, 600 kids. Like going from Apostles to a smaller church, we don't pull in that many kids. Right. Because you can, you know, you are, quote, unquote, competing with the larger churches. But there's a preciousness to that, you know, that smaller group of people. More intentionality. More intentionality. There's more connection with those leaders. I would say volunteers are a must. Volunteer training is a must in today's world.

[00:19:08] I would say safety volunteer training, big, big deal. Yeah. We've already had ours for our VBS. But as far as the components to it, it's almost like you go into a buffet. Which ones do you choose? Right. Some choose not to do arts and crafts because that's just a little too much. You know, it might be too messy. Some, that's just their wheelhouse. Yeah. Others, music. But the core of it, the must-haves, has to be the story element of the gospel. The story element of who is Jesus?

[00:19:37] What did he come to do? Yeah. That has to be at the forefront. Don't want to go to a VBS where they're just teaching about Jesus being a nice man. Yeah, morality. Morality. You and I have had this conversation before, but that can tend to be where we go. So, you know, here's some Bible characters. Be a nice person. Yeah, be more like him. And it's okay. Morality is fine, but morality is the obedient response to grace. Obedience doesn't get you to grace. Right. Right? Grace gets you to obedience. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's getting the cart before the horse.

[00:20:06] Obedience kind of runs you away from grace. Obedience runs you away from grace because you say, I'm not good enough to do this. Right. I'm not good enough to be saved. Prayer elements. Yeah, absolutely. Having people pray for VBS. I know at Apostles, they have the, you know, the engine room is what they call it, right? Yeah. Yeah. A group of... Spurgeon thing. It's a Spurgeon thing. A group of ladies joining in together to pray because I think that's the thing. We can't change anybody's want to.

[00:20:32] When it comes to kids, when it comes to adults, you can't change anybody's want to. The Holy Spirit has to do that. Yeah. And if what we're saying is, if I just speak well, if I just am goofy enough, if I just do the right amount of songs or we have the right activities, this kid's going to come to Christ. Right. No. No. You can have Disney level VBS experience. Still their heart is unchanged. It needs the power of the Holy Spirit to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:00] He is the one that changes their hearts. And so, prayer is basically asking, you know, the Holy Spirit to move in the hearts of these kids. All right. Hypothetical. You've sent your kid to VBS and they're having like, they're having a great time. And then the gospel message comes and they are receiving it really well. I don't want to put an age on that because it could be any age. What does a parent do? I would hope that a parent, if a parent is not connected to the church, you talked about

[00:21:30] that 69% there. Yeah. I would hope that that would be the impetus for them to get involved. Yeah. I feel like parents in general feel like they're thrown into the deep end of the pool when they're dealing with developing their kid's spirituality. Okay. Well, what do I do with this? What do I do with this? And I mean, not to plug Gray Bobby, but I'm like, one of the whole reasons why that whole

[00:21:56] ministry came about was, here's a easy way to listen to a story. Somebody else is involved in it. And so it's not about them, but you can bring it back around to them. And, you know, the characters teach the truth. You just apply it. You just ask those questions. You lay down with them or you sit with them or you listen to it. And I think parents learning to get involved, to be equipped, to get the training necessary

[00:22:24] to help develop their kid's spirituality. And then getting connected with the local church, making sure that you have a local church that takes a kid's discipleship seriously. Because some of them, it's just babysitting. There's a lot of churches that believe, talking about that 3 to 13 statistic, some people believe that kids should just be moved out of the way so we can minister to the adults. And that's not right. Like, there should be something substantial for those 3 to 13-year-olds.

[00:22:52] If they're in the service or they're not in the service. Whichever your church decides, make sure that they're getting something. Because after middle school, it's harder to reach a kid for Christ. There are areas where they begin to ask questions. And usually it's around that middle school time. You know, they ask the why questions, the simplistic why questions. You know, where is God? Or what, you know. And a lot of that's answered catechism-wise.

[00:23:20] That's one of the simplest things parents can do. Walk through the catechism with their kids. And by catechism, I'm talking about the catechism for young children. Right. Yeah. Not the Westminster. Not the Westminster larger catechism. Our shorter catechism. Although, interestingly enough, the shorter catechism was created for children originally. Yeah. And this is just kind of how far we have come, right? Someone broke it down in the 1800s for children. And then they've refined that.

[00:23:47] But, you know, being able to have a dialogue with your kids when they want to. Yeah. And when they start asking the why, the why questions start going internal when they're in middle school. And you have to begin to kind of draw those out of them. When they are in high school, they stop asking the questions. Yeah. So, if you can have a dialogue, an ongoing dialogue with your children, it doesn't have to be formal. It can be informal. And ongoing. And ongoing. Yeah. It's the whole Deuteronomy 6 thing. Yeah.

[00:24:17] Okay. A family is listening to this podcast and they think, we're going to miss VBS this year. We've, you know, little Jimmy's got baseball and Susie's got ballet. We're busy. We've got a vacation. Yeah. So, what's your, you know, I don't want to say sales pitch because that's cheesy. My sales pitch. What's your urge? My urge. My exhortation to them. Right. My exhortation to them would be, okay, not this year, but maybe next year.

[00:24:48] And, you know, schedule it and defend it. Right. Schedule it. Know when that's coming. And make it a priority. Church was not a negotiable item for my kids. Not just because I worked there. Partly because I worked there. But it was not a negotiable item. And look, one of the things I just desperately want to tell parents, and I know I'm kind of getting sidetracked here, but I think this is important for their child's development.

[00:25:17] When your kid says they don't like youth group or they don't like this, they don't like that, you know what? Push them to go anyway. Yeah. Push them to make those friends. So many times what happens is they just like, well, they don't like it. And I don't want them to hate religion. You know? Well, I don't think that's going to happen. The best way for them to avoid spirituality or Christianity or however you want to express that, the best way to avoid Christianity is to avoid Christianity.

[00:25:46] I kind of think it's strange that we expect fruit from places we don't plant. And so you have to actively be planting. Now, yeah, maybe you need to think about a different church if your kids don't connect. But I think more times than not, it's just them saying, I don't want to go to church. And that was me. It's a season. I don't want to go to church. Yeah. But then when I came to know the Lord, that's where I wanted to be. Yeah. And it wasn't the coolest church in the world either.

[00:26:14] It was a group of older believers, and I felt cared for, loved, and poured into, especially when my family was split up at the time. You've got a lot of father figures that are around. So the church is important. You know, the idea is that you need a whole church of people to help raise that child. I don't want to quote Hillary Clinton here. And with the giftings like we talked about earlier. Yeah. Yeah. You want to see all of those. And they can get involved in that in their local church.

[00:26:42] I just preached on that on Sunday. So many people know their kid's natural aptitude, whether that's sports, dance, arts, whatever, science. But I ask them, do you know your kid's spiritual gift? Because if you know their other gifts and you don't know their spiritual gifts, then you're missing an opportunity. What are you trying to shepherd in them? Yeah. Steward in them. Yeah.

[00:27:08] Well, VBS 2025, I hope everyone listening to this has already signed up or attended or at least scheduling now 2026. Yes. Zach Cardin, Marietta Community Church and Gray Bobby Ministries. Yeah. And we are so thankful. I'll be at Apostles. That's right. As well. I'll be at Apostles at VBS. June is going to be a blur. But God is good.

[00:27:35] Well, we appreciate in the busyness of all that you're going through that you took the time to come and be on Candid Conversations. Always enjoy it. Thank you for the invite. Of course. Thanks for joining us today on Candid Conversations. Whether you're planning crafts and memory verses or just reliving your glory days of snack time and skits. We hope you're walking away reminded of the impact VBS can have.

[00:28:00] Over half the kids who attend are unchurched and 69% of parents say they'd send their kids if invited by a friend. So ask someone. Love some kids. Share the gospel. And make sure you grab some goldfish on the way out. We'll see you next time.