From Fine to Free w/Joy Chapman | Episode 289

[00:00:04] Welcome back to Candid Conversations, where we love to explore the real, raw, and redemptive stories of God working through His people. I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef, and today we're welcoming one of our own to the Candid Studios. Today's guest is Joy Chapman, Development Director for the West Coast for Leading the Way. Joy, how good it is to be with you. We met once before when you first came on at Leading the Way, and now we're getting reconnected,

[00:00:32] and my team was saying just how amazing your story is. And so we're going to be candid. I hope you're ready. Yes, thanks for having me. Tell us a little bit about upbringing, growing up. What did that look like for you? I became a Christian at a young age. Mom told me to go brush my teeth, and so I went upstairs. I did not want to brush my teeth. Sounds like my kids. So she comes up and she says, hey, did you brush your teeth? I said, yes.

[00:01:02] And then she turns and walks away. I said, oh, no. She goes into the bathroom, feels my toothbrush. It was dry. Busted. Yes. So after I faced the consequences of that lie, I needed Jesus. And so we were on the floor, and I said, I need Jesus right now. From that? From that. From that? Wow. From the lie. I remember the point where I was sitting, and I just knew I was a mess. I was young, but I was going to do things sideways my way.

[00:01:32] But I went to church. I went to Christian school. And so at our church, we had Sunday school, and then we went to big church for the worship. Sure. And then children's church. And then at school, we memorized verses once a week. So those verses got inside of me, and I loved it. I loved church. I loved Jesus. I loved the stories. I bought it.

[00:01:56] So when those verses got inside of me, they became a part of my being, my gut. What Joy shares here reminds me that Scripture isn't just instruction. It's formation. When God's Word is deeply rooted in us, it not only teaches us truth, but also reshapes how we see ourselves, others, and the world. They guided me.

[00:02:24] And I didn't realize they were becoming like part of my identity. And so there were a couple of them that stuck out that still stick out today. Okay. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. And so as a kid, as I'm thinking through, what does that mean? What I think about is who I am. Okay. What I think about is who I am. Got it.

[00:02:46] And then whatsoever things are true, pure, just, lovely, noble, if there be any virtue and any praise, think on these things. Okay. So if I think about things that are true, pure, lovely, I am in some way true, pure, and lovely myself. Action of it, right? Yeah. And so I thought, okay, I want to be true, pure, and lovely. I'll think on these things.

[00:03:13] So who knew that now scientifically we have the proof that what you're thinking about, the brain pathways you're forming shape your identity. And because my parents were both pursuing like a 1 Corinthians 13 love of me, I was in a safe, loved environment where that could shape my identity. That was key in my formation. At age 12, we got into a car wreck.

[00:03:39] My mom got brain damaged and was in bed for a year. She had some neck and shoulder damage. But that started my journey with Romans 12 to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Mom and I were in a tug of war. She was in pain. I wanted her to heal. I said, mom, your brain can get better. It can. I know it can. 12-year-old wisdom. There was no science behind it.

[00:04:06] The doctors were saying, oh, no, after two years, whatever healing you've got, that's all you're getting. So there was this tug of war. But I believed her brain can heal. But I had no real proof. Scientific proof, right? And at the same time, spiritually, I felt like there was more. I always as a kid felt like I'm missing some piece of Christianity, and I didn't know what it was.

[00:04:34] So then, as an adult, I really started deconstructing. Because I start reading Scripture, and I said, okay, wait a minute. In 1 John 4, it says, perfect love drives out fear. Okay, I looked around at the Christians I knew. I don't see perfect love driving out fear. Right. So is the Bible a lie? Or are we missing it? Yeah. And it was a huge question for me.

[00:05:02] And it was hard to get adults to engage and get in it with me. So in the same way, Romans 12, 2, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I'm looking at Christians. Are we being transformed? So there's all this potential that the Bible's talking about, this incredible possibility, this abundant life. But I didn't see many people living it.

[00:05:30] Yeah, which is interesting because the inverse of that is what he says, do not be conformed to the image of the world, which sounds like you were picking up and seeing people who were professing faith being conformed to the patterns of the world. Absolutely. At the time, it was incredibly confusing because I said, if this is all a lie, if this isn't

[00:05:56] true, I'm going to go ditch it and go mountain biking and go adventuring. Yeah. Cultural Christianity was not appealing to me at all, you know. And so I thought, well, how am I going to figure this out? So I start praying. And then I went to a conference that was a week-long summer conference where there were a lot of Christian speakers speaking.

[00:06:22] And my questions were adequately answered in that conference for me to say, okay, we're missing it. That's the answer to my question. And I said, well, I don't want to miss it. But I don't know what to do about it. Which is interesting. So at a conference, you feel like you're getting the answer to the question of, are we missing out? And the answer is yes. Yes.

[00:06:48] But you're not getting any of the, and here's how to live it out. Right. Okay. I have seen this often, a broad stroke statement. For example, you need to forgive. Okay. What is forgiveness? Because there's great confusion in how you behave after forgiveness. There's this misunderstanding that if I forgive, then I have to be walked all over again. Then I have to let the person sin against me again. It's a boundary issue.

[00:07:18] No, no. Forgiveness is separate. You can totally forgive somebody. Like if somebody comes into your house three times and steals from you three times, you must forgive them. You never have to invite them into the house again. There's a boundary there based on their behavior, but the forgiveness piece. So what is it? And why is it so important? And how do we do it? For example, I was interested in this guy.

[00:07:48] It was my early thirties. We were spending time together and he said, you are so defensive. And I said, I am not defensive. With a defensive tone. And then I thought, oh dear, I'm defensive. Yeah. It's a little scary when you hear yourself say it, right? Yeah. I've been there. Yep. And I really liked this guy. And I thought, well, I've ruined that. Joy's honesty here is powerful.

[00:08:15] Sometimes healing begins not with fixing, but with feeling. When God invites us to stop pretending we're fine and we start to face what we've buried. It's in that surrender that he starts the real work. But I went for a run at the Stone Mountain Trails and I said to God, I said, okay, God, apparently I'm defensive. I had no idea. Yeah. Okay. Why am I defensive?

[00:08:44] And then God and I just started breaking it down. What makes somebody defensive? Well, they're afraid of being hurt. And I said, but I'm not afraid of being hurt. I'm fine. I'm always fine. Because I had made up my mind that I was going to be fine, even keel, emotionally level, never the problem. And so that's how I behaved. And I believed that's how I was. I actually believed I was fine.

[00:09:12] And so God says, Joy, are you really fine? I was like, yes. He says, Joy, start thinking about the people who've hurt you over the course of your life. And he brought to mind 13 people who had hurt me. And I said, wait, what? And all this pain started coming out. I'm on the trail. I'm running. I'm screaming. I'm sobbing. The pain's pouring out.

[00:09:39] I'm using every word in the vocabulary that's at my disposal. And it's as if God took my filter off my mouth and said, I want you to feel this. And so I felt it. And I said, God, I know. I know. There's 13 people. I've got to forgive them. I know. 70 times 7. I got it. But not right now. I need a minute. So this is my life. This is who I am. So all this revelation about this hurt that I had squelched is coming to me in the moment.

[00:10:08] I needed a minute just to feel it. And he gave me that. He gave me several minutes. It was loud. It was powerful. And it was cathartic. And so as I'm doing that, I keep saying, I'm not forgiving them yet. I'll do it. Not yet. Not yet. This is me. Well, then I stopped screaming and crying. And it had played out. Everyone on the trail is now checking to make sure you're okay. Do you know I didn't run into a single person?

[00:10:37] It was just me and God. And at the end of it, as I took a breath, I realized I've already halfway forgiven them. I was like, God, I didn't want to forgive them yet. But now I'm halfway forgiving them. Fine. I'll just forgive them all. And he's like, all right, let's do it. And he worked in my heart. All I had to do was give him the permission to make my heart ready because my heart was not ready.

[00:11:07] My heart was stubborn. He changed it in that moment. And so then there was this immense relief. This immense weight came off my shoulders. It was astounding to me. If you ask me who was on that list of 13, I can only tell you maybe two because it's done. They're completely forgiven. The power of the pain over me is gone. I no longer hold any of their wrongs against me whatsoever.

[00:11:36] And I'm the one who got out of prison because it was making me defensive. I didn't go to any of those folks face to face. It was between me and God and what it was doing in my heart. So that was massive heart healing in 20 minutes. This was another piece in the puzzle of there's something more, but I haven't put my finger on it kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So after I experienced that, it was fun because I just started telling everybody.

[00:12:05] Because another overarching question I'd had is what is the good news? What is it really? I mean, yes, Jesus died for us. Yes, he's rescued us from the dominion of darkness. But what about the abundant life? What is that? That's massive good news. So that forgiveness piece then became very important. So jumping forward in the story, I moved out to California for several years.

[00:12:32] And while I was there, I drove past this place called Pasadena International House of Prayer. And every time I drove past, the Holy Spirit said, Joy, go check it out. And I said, I'll get to it. Well, I didn't get to it. And then my landlord wound up checking it out. And she came back. She said, Joy, you've got to go check this out. So I went there. And long story short, they do deep healing prayer with Jesus.

[00:13:02] And it focuses in on fear, forgiveness, and identity. So this all deeply resonated with me. And it's healing those things in an hour and a half long prayer session or two hours. And so I got trained. And you get trained for about eight months. And I started volunteering with it.

[00:13:27] Hearing Joy talk about this ministry reminds me how many of us quietly carry wounds from our past. And often facing those hidden places, we finally begin to understand the connection between fear, forgiveness, and our identity in Christ. Jesus would do immense healing with anybody who wanted to. And we all have broken hearts.

[00:13:51] And either we're walking around with a broken heart or we're in process of having that heart healed. Then the Christ-likeness can come out of a healed heart. You're not forcing good behavior. It flows out of that healed heart. Forcing good behavior becomes an end in itself. Right. Right. And now I'm only looking for the behavioral.

[00:14:18] I think people can have behavioral modification and their heart remains in the same position. Until you have the Holy Spirit coming, bringing illumination of God's Word and the truths of who God is and how He operates and what I've been forgiven of. And now I'm free actually to offer that forgiveness, which sounds like that's what you had on display in your run through the mountains.

[00:14:45] Now the behaviors are actually just the fruit of the reality of what's come in. Yes. That's an information thing to your Romans 12 illustration. And then the rest of Romans 12 becomes the outworking of that. Right. It's in my mind, but it's actually made its way all the way to my heart to where it becomes that putting on display the Christ-likeness characteristics that you're talking about. Yeah. Yes. And it's so much easier to do it that way. Right.

[00:15:13] Yeah, because otherwise you're trying to do it out of your own strength and ability, which you can do for a while, but eventually you'll be exhausted. And people will know you're a fraud. Yeah. And you'll fall hard when your intentions were good and you were trying as hard as you could try. But that's where Jesus says, no, my yoke is easy. My burden is light. Let me help you. I think that's a key piece. Jesus offers us so much help.

[00:15:42] And so to talk about what does that help look like? Yeah. You know. Let me ask you, what do you find is the biggest obstacle to people being willing to receive help? Yes. So, and it was my obstacle as well. It's the initial being willing to look at the darkness and hurt that's inside of me because it's so ugly.

[00:16:04] The sin in there that's so ugly, the thoughts, the hurt, and it's all kind of a mixed up melee of stuff. It's the first opening of that door. But the great thing is this. Once you open up the door and you stare at it the first time and you get some healing and then you realize, okay, yeah, it's ugly stuff in there. But Jesus just healed it. It wasn't bad. It's like. And he didn't run away from it. Right. Yeah.

[00:16:33] And so being willing to get up on the operating table and let Jesus do the surgery. It's that stepping up onto the table. We like to feel confident and, you know, the word you kept using earlier was I'm fine. And I think that's a really good sort of summation of the mentality that I think we want to portray to the rest of the world. I'm fine. It's great. You know, here's my social media profile. And does it look like I'm struggling with anything? Because I'm not.

[00:17:03] Right. When it's like behind. Yeah. Yeah. Lord help. Right. Or someone help. The number of folks in the deep healing prayer that I've encountered who have feelings of worthlessness or unworthiness. It's immense. The identity issues that we have that are hiding. But if we're not honest about it, we can fool ourselves into thinking nobody else knows that I feel worthless. So it's okay.

[00:17:31] If I'm becoming Christlike, Jesus did not feel worthless. And he gives me worth. So I'm not worthless. I'm priceless. The truth is I'm priceless. So part of in this prayer, the deep healing prayer, part of what we do is we look at the lies that we might believe about ourselves and then ask Jesus, what are the truths? We're priceless. We're children adopted into the kingdom. Yeah.

[00:17:57] You may not want to talk about this, but the International House of Prayer has gone kind of through some turmoil. Yes. If they're hearing this and saying, this sounds familiar. Yes. There was some turmoil in Oklahoma City where the International House of Prayer originated. One thing about the International House of Prayer is there's different prayer houses across the United States and across the world. And they all are pretty separate from each other. The way they're set up is to kind of maintain autonomy and each be separate.

[00:18:27] And so the Pasadena House of Prayer is run by its own team and has little interaction with the Kansas City one. And it was astounding to me. There's members from 85 different churches who all volunteer at that house of prayer. I think we have to be careful with allowing a little bit of taint to taint the whole. This is tricky ground. Yeah. Right? And it's difficult.

[00:18:56] And there's a fine line to navigate. What I can say is the Pasadena House of Prayer, I was very cynical when I went the first time. I was very skeptical. I was running them through every single ounce of discernment that I had in me. And they had the verses to back up what they were doing, the support. It was biblical.

[00:19:20] So it was an incredible experience for me to volunteer with them and to very much put them through the fire. Are these folks real? It's been about, wow, nine years that I've been volunteering with them. And I'm very proud of their pursuit of intimate relationship with Jesus, not religiosity, not rule following, intimacy with Jesus.

[00:19:46] But yes, to your point, there have been Christians across the U.S. and various large groups. There's a struggle going on. And they need prayer. Yeah. So, Joy, what were some of the issues that you were dealing with that you felt like you needed to tackle or perhaps maybe even what the Lord was revealing to you? Again, maybe obstacles or whatever in your sanctification process as we've been talking about. Yes.

[00:20:12] Another piece that can get in the way of the sanctification process is fear. That was my original – when I – so I was first asking the question, does perfect love really drive out fear? Right. And looking around. And so my struggle with fear, it was very hidden. What strikes me here is that moment when truth moves from information to transformation.

[00:20:40] It's one thing to know what the Bible says about your worth. It's another thing to hear the voice of Jesus. Confirm it in the quiet of your heart. There was a point at which I had severe asthma and severe grand mal seizures. And so there was fear in not being able to breathe. There was fear in am I going to have a horrendous seizure? I got healed from both of those physically.

[00:21:09] One time, a friend of mine came out to California. I was living there at the time. We went to dinner. And we got on the conversation of my fears. And one of my fears was speaking in front of people. And I'd had it for decades. And this was a childhood friend. And so he had the grounds to say whatever he wanted. We were like brother and sister. Right, right. He said, you cannot be afraid of public speaking. No, it's not allowed. I was like, it is allowed.

[00:21:38] I'm afraid. And I'm never going to do it. And he said, nope, unacceptable. So we walked in circles around this restaurant for three hours while he cared enough to drill in and say, okay, what are you actually afraid of? What's the worst that could happen? And then I would give the answer. And then he would say, well, is it really so bad? And I was afraid of stumbling over my words. I could lose my words pretty easily. And then he said, well, is that so bad?

[00:22:08] Aren't you going to have friends in the audience? Maybe they'll cut you a break. Well, I mean, maybe. Then I was like, but I'm afraid of having a seizure on stage in front of everybody. That would be horrendous. Seriously? Maybe there'd be some compassion for you. Maybe they'd get you off the stage and take care of you and it'd be okay. Or wherever, the classroom, wherever it is. Because I had shut down any speaking in front of any group. It's like one-on-one is awesome. Aside from that, no.

[00:22:36] So Jesus was using him as this vessel. So by the end of the three hours, I was no longer afraid of speaking in front of people. It all went away. And it's because he had the heart to talk through it completely with me, to make me face it. Cut off your arguments. Yeah. And here's the key thing about fear. This is huge.

[00:23:01] When you speak your fear out loud, it is not as ferocious as when it's inside your head and it hasn't been spoken. Most people think, well, if I speak it out loud, it's going to make it bigger and worse. It's the opposite. What a reminder this is. Naming our fear doesn't make it more powerful. In fact, it often loses its grip the moment it's spoken. Bringing fear into the light is one of the most courageous steps towards freedom.

[00:23:31] You say it out loud and you unpack it. Well, is Jesus there with you? Has he abandoned you? In that, no. And so there's immense healing in fear. Now, and again, that's a whole can of worms because fear, anxiety. You start connecting those two and you get them to tricky territory. But I've seen a lot of healing that Jesus has done in that realm of fear.

[00:24:00] His perfect love does drive out fear. And this was a three decades long fear. And I had set my mind. I was going to leave that alone and just never go near speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And has he given you opportunities to speak since then? Yes. And it was terrifying to a degree. But at the same time, I did it. And I did it in front of a very friendly group of folks.

[00:24:29] It was a discipleship class that I did it for seminary. And it was a phenomenal experience. I wrote my own curriculum that I was just super passionate about. And we did it during COVID, a group of us outside and had a lovely experience. And I never would have done that if my friend hadn't walked me through that. You know? Yeah. But just the freedom of being free of the fear, it helps me step more into my identity and take ownership.

[00:24:59] Does Jesus create anything but incredible creations? We're all an incredible creation. And so what does he want us to do? He wants us to, without pride, own who we are, who he's made us to be, all the beauty of us, all the giftings that he's given us. There's a way to take ownership without getting cocky.

[00:25:29] And as he frees us of unforgiveness issues, fear issues, it is easier to step into that identity because there's just less bondage. We're in less prisons. Yeah. So there's a lot of transforming work that he's done in me. I needed a lot of help. Reflecting on Joy's story, I'm reminded of how the Lord uses everything, including tragedy, to draw us closer to him.

[00:25:59] That's exactly what Joy experienced in the historic flooding of Western North Carolina and a few months later in the Los Angeles wildfires. I live in Western North Carolina. I was not there when the hurricane hit. I was actually on a work trip out west. But the ironic thing is I knew more about what was going on than my friends in Western North Carolina because the electricity was out. Right.

[00:26:28] So the day before the storm came in, I'm watching on my phone. So the storm comes in. It hits. It's horrible. I'm texting my friends. They're not answering. I called one. She didn't answer. I'm watching on Facebook as the cries come out. I haven't heard from my grandma. Can somebody go to this address and look? So here I am in Colorado watching this happen. In the meantime, I'm seeing videos that people are taking.

[00:26:57] And this is before the news. This is before anybody was in action. This is like the morning after. Yeah. And the videos of the fallen trees, the downed power lines were horrendous. And so I'm thinking, God, I'm not there. If I was there, I'd be hopping on my mountain bike and I'd be going out and like looking for some people. So I really wrestled with God. Why can't I be there?

[00:27:21] And I had to release guilt for not being in the mess of North Carolina. Then after that, start praying for Western North Carolina. So I got about 10 people texted and called. Y'all, we got to pray for God's glory over North Carolina. My job wasn't to be there in person, which is what I wanted. So I had to release that and let it go. I got home a couple weeks later. The electricity had been out for 11 days.

[00:27:53] Where I lived, there's a creek right beside it. But there's a little bitty holding pond. And so the creek had not risen past that pond. Wow. But my across the street neighbors, they got flooded. And you drive around and there's trees down everywhere. You don't drive anywhere fast because around a corner, there could be a work crew and there weren't enough people to set up cones. So you've got to be careful everywhere you go.

[00:28:20] So we worked through the Western North Carolina, you know, disaster. There's so many people who came and helped. The outpouring of God's love in that place was gorgeous. The hearts of people caring for people, it was – God's glory was everywhere. It was beautiful. It's still very much a work in progress. Joy spends a lot of time in California with Leading the Way.

[00:28:45] When there, she stays with a previous landlord and stores a car and other personal items. Early January, I get a text on my phone at midnight that says, Joy, there's fires. We can't take your car. We're leaving. So I'm like, wait, what? There's fires. My friends had to evacuate and there wasn't enough of them to take my car.

[00:29:14] So I said, well, there's been fires in California before. We've lived through them. They're not going to get down into all the houses. And then I wake up the next morning and they've gotten down into the houses. But I didn't know which ones. And so I got on the phone with them. Guys, what's going on? And they're like, it's bad. It's bad. We're going to be lucky if our house makes it.

[00:29:42] So we're just waiting for about six hours because the fires are ravaging the area. People have evacuated. Nobody's there. Nobody knows what's going on. You know, the firefighters don't have any water. So we waited. My landlords drove up to their house and their house made it. But the back house where I used to live got burned. And I loved that place. It was my favorite place that I lived in my adult life.

[00:30:11] My mountain bike burned. Not a big deal compared to the people who lost their full homes. So my landlords then drove up. They knew where my car was parked. It wasn't far away. They drove up to where my car was parked and they sent me a picture. The whole place had burned. So the car had gone. So here I was again. I'm in North Carolina. The disaster happens on the other side of the United States in California. I'm not there.

[00:30:40] But I immediately started praying, God, do I get to go to this one? And he said, yeah, I need you to go and you need to go pray with people. This one broke my heart. Yeah. So I get out there and am praying with people. And there was some incredible prayer times. And I had about four days before we went to the site to see my old apartment that burned and then to see where my car burned.

[00:31:09] And my landlord said, you need to prepare yourself. This is – it's – you need to be ready for what you're about to see. And so we get up there and two cul-de-sacs behind my landlord's. Every house on the cul-de-sac was burned. My landlord's house should have burned. And it didn't burn. Wow, wow, wow. Then we went up to where my car had burned down and it was a different story.

[00:31:36] It was a devastation the same way that North Carolina had been devastated. Both – visually when you see them, it does something to your soul. The grief process for me was the same. It was a special area. It's beautiful. And so – but what I realized is all of the transforming work that God had done in me enabled me to look at these two massive devastations of nature.

[00:32:06] We're not made for such devastation. It does something to us. So, again, in California, the same thing happened. The outpouring of care was immense. As much as I got to see the devastation, I got to see more good from people and out of people than I'd ever seen before.

[00:32:26] Listening to Joy recount these back-to-back disasters, I'm reminded how God's call isn't always to be on the front lines, but to be present in prayer, to see His glory in unlikely places, and to trust that He's at work even when we feel helpless. But I did ask, God, what do you want me to take from being a part of these two disasters? That's still a work in progress.

[00:32:54] You know, I'm still listening and learning. But God does give the grace for today. The healing that He offers, be it from disasters, be it from trauma, is – it's available to us. It's important. And to take the first step of opening up our darkness, saying, here's our darkness, Jesus. You do something. I can't do anything.

[00:33:23] What Jesus will do in that is stunning. It's a release from prisons. He came to bind up the brokenhearted very literally. We are the captives He wants to set free. We are in prisons of darkness. And He offers so much healing in that space. The healing Jesus offers isn't just for our souls. It's for our memories, our minds, and even our grief. And it starts with surrender.

[00:33:52] Joy, we've been on quite an adventure. And I hope that those listening who may be wrestling with issues of identity, forgiveness, fear, have been able to take something away from hearing your story and perhaps do some wrestling of their own with the Lord. And we pray that He would build you up and build our listeners up into the knowledge of who He is and the character of who He is.

[00:34:18] So thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us and have a candid conversation. Thank you for having me. What a pleasure. Likewise. I'm Jonathan Youssef, and this is Candid Conversations. If Joy's story stirred something in you today, maybe a wound that's never fully healed, a fear that's held you back, or shame that still whispers lies, you can know this. Jesus is near. Healing is possible.

[00:34:47] And you don't have to walk through it alone. Reach out to someone. Invite Jesus into the midst of your pain. He's ready to meet you there. If you would like to pray with someone, contact our pastoral care team at ltw.org slash help. You can find this link in the show notes. If you found this conversation helpful, please share it with someone who might benefit. Subscribe so you never miss an episode.

[00:35:15] And direct message your faith questions on Instagram at CandidPod.