Episode 259: What is Biblical Theology and Why Is It Important?: Nancy Guthrie (Reprise)

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I love about teaching Biblical Theology because what we do at the workshop

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: is I introduce this idea of Biblical themes, themes that the Divine Author has written into

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: his book that help us get to the main message he wants us to get to.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So as you look at Christ, like gaze at him from all of these angles that the Biblical

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: themes provide to us, what happens is we see more clearly his beauty, his sufficiency and

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: his necessity.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what we need to see most of all when we go to the Bible.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Now some people will say well you know but my people they want something practical.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say to you there is nothing more practical than the urgency of being joined

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to Jesus Christ.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to Candid where we never settle for less than the truth.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host Jonathan Youssef.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Each week we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions and take a candid look

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: at the Christian faith.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you mind leaving us a review today?

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[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: help.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Using your favorite podcast platform go to our show and leave a rating along with a review

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and perhaps next week we will mention you on the show.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you receive discipleship when you became a Christian?

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: How did you approach studying the scriptures?

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Depending on your background you may have been exposed to a limited range of Biblical

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: perspectives through Sunday school preaching or small groups.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode Nancy Guthrie shares the benefits of studying the scriptures through the lens

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: of Biblical theology.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Drawing from her personal experiences in publishing and the heart-wrenching loss of

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: two children she explains how God deepened her passion for his Word.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Nancy is a respected author, host of the Help Me Teach the Bible podcast at the

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Gospel Coalition and a Bible teacher at her home church in Nashville.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: She frequently leads her Biblical theology workshop for women at conferences both nationally

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and internationally and with her husband founded Respet Retreats for Grieving Couples.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Join us as we explore the riches of God's character and love for us through a deeper

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: understanding of his Word.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: May this episode inspire you to pursue a more profound knowledge of the scriptures guided

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: by the Holy Spirit.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Well today my guest is someone I've been wanting to have on for a little while here and it's

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Nancy Guthrie.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Nancy has or continues to study at Reformed Theological Seminary.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: She is a contributor on the Gospel Coalition including helping on the podcast Help Me

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Teach the Bible and she is a prolific writer and teacher of women and it is a great

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: pleasure all the way from Nashville, Tennessee.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Nancy Guthrie, Nancy thank you so much for being on Candid Conversations.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Well thank you Jonathan I'm so glad to be with you and your listeners.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I first heard your name when I was actually in Sydney, Australia and my former senior

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: rector at St. Thomas's North Sydney, Simon Manchester was I think co-hosting with you

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_02]: at the One Love Conference and my wife attended and she said have you ever heard of this lady

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Nancy Guthrie and I said no and she shared some of your story with me and I went and

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: watched some of your videos and I've just been blessed by your ministry and your books

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and we're so grateful for all that the Lord has done through you.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if you could just take a minute or two and kind of give us a little

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: snapshot of your story coming to faith, getting involved in these weighty issues of theology

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we'll dive into biblical theology after that.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay terrific.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well I grew up in a Christian home.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: My grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher and church planter and he baptized me when

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I was eight years old and so I grew up knowing and studying the Bible.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I went away to college and minored in Bible.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I got a job at a Christian publishing house, Word Publishing in Waco, Texas right out of

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: college and so I was immediately working with some of the leading Christian communicators

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of that day which was an incredible opportunity to have a front row seat to see how they

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: handled the Bible, how they communicated it, how they did ministry.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And honestly Jonathan, I learned from both their negative and positive examples in that

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: regard from seeing that up close.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: We moved to Nashville.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: My husband David and I and my son Matt who was three at the time, we moved to Nashville

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: in 1993 and I joined a Bible study here that I mean I remember being somewhat hesitant

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: because they had such high expectations for the level of commitment that I would

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: actually do my lesson every week and show up every week for the discussion and the lecture

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and that just seemed like a huge sacrifice to me at the time.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean I was, I had a media relations business serving Christian publishing clients and I

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: was just you know so busy but you know what Jonathan?

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I was so desperate for something real with God and I knew at that point it was only

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: going to come through His Word by me.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: One in relationship meant that I was going to need to listen to Him speak to me and

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: respond to Him in prayer and so I made that commitment and it changed my life.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I just week to week I would be in the Word and come under conviction and repent

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Lord was working in my life so significantly.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly sometimes I wondered what is God preparing me for?

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's good that I didn't know in some ways.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: In 1998 I gave birth to a daughter named Hope and Hope was born with a rare metabolic

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: disorder called Zellwicker syndrome and so we found out on her second day of life that

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: her life would be very short, very difficult. Hope couldn't see or hear or suck or swallow.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of her internal organs were already significantly damaged before she was born

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and so the Lord gave us 199 days with her and as you can imagine Jonathan that was just

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: a profound turning point in my life. As much as I loved the scriptures and thought that I

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: understood them, that experienced caused me to take some very significant questions

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: back to the scriptures and try to understand what God is doing in the world and

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: what those of us who call him father can expect from him in this life

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and so I had a lot to work through during Hope's life and then after her death.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Now to have a child with that syndrome means that my husband and I must both be

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: carriers of the recessive gene trait for that syndrome so that meant after we had hope

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: we had a difficult decision to make in regard to whether or not we would have more children

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and we decided the wisest thing to do was to take some surgical steps to prevent another pregnancy

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: which we did but evidently it didn't work and so about a year and a half after Hope died I

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: discovered I was pregnant and honestly Jonathan when I discovered that oh man my heart was pounding

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't want to go through it again. Yeah I went up to David's office but the thing was

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: it was really a combination of profound emotions Jonathan because there was this cautious sense

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: of joy like here's this thing that we ruled out and God has clearly overruled and maybe he has

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: done that because he's going to give us another child to raise which we desperately wanted

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but didn't expect but then the other part of me was this sense of dread like

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe he's going to ask me to do that again and for that there was just why would he ask

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: me to do it again was there something I didn't learn the first time around that I need a remedial

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: course or what is it but you know at that point I just had really come to the conclusion

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that these things are not accidents in our lives I totally rest in the sovereignty of God

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and I remember just saying to him okay Lord if you're going to ask me to do this again and

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: because we went through prenatal testing and discovered that this child was also going

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to have the fatal syndrome I just said to him okay Lord if you're going to ask me to

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: do this again you must have something very significant that you want to do with it

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and so what I'm asking you is do everything do everything that you intend to do keep me from

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: being resistant uncooperative to your purposes in this and magnify yourself in our lives and in

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: our son Gabor was with us about the same length of time he was with us 183 days and then he was

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: gone and so those those two children they're very short lives and deaths they were

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: profoundly shaping to my life I you know in many ways it's it's so long ago I mean

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: hope would be 24 and Gabe would be 22 and so in many ways it's so long ago but

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I tell some people you know you can't really know me without knowing about that because those

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: experience they not only shape to I am but you know they shape what we're going to talk about

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: today yeah part of the Bible because they were so significant in my understanding of who God is

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and what he's doing in the world and he answered that prayer that you prayed even in again what we're

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be talking about and in the way that you have in a sense unlocked the scriptures for a lot of

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: people a lot of women who could have gone years without having a almost an interpretive key to

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: understand things that maybe felt distant to them but you have helped God has used you to help

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: bring the nearness in understanding women I'm sure and men I'm sure who have faced similar situations

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: who have had similar questions and didn't really know how to take questions to the scripture I

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: like the way that you phrase that and so God has obviously used that for his purposes and

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and we grieve but we rejoice with you that these are the ways that he's equipped you and

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: used you and your husband and so you've written you've contributed quite a bit to the Christian

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: world and and now you've got a biblical theology workshop for women and you're you're making your

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: way around the US and a little bit outside of the US I think the UK and a few other places

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if you could help us for those who maybe don't understand biblical theology can

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: be kind of a misnomer is it biblical theology as opposed to unbiblical theology and what's the

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: difference between that and something like systematic theology which you know some people

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe not have even heard of so just walk us through a little bit of the thought process behind

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: it what it is and then your intention and your purpose in teaching it certainly yeah I think

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the first time I heard the term biblical theology I would have I made the assumption

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: which is not an ignorant assumption to assume that we're talking about theology that is biblical as

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: opposed to unbiblical but actually there are there are numerous kinds of theologies if theology

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is the study of God there are a number of ways we go to that there would be historical theology

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: where we study what has been believed about God throughout history I think what I grew up

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: being taught most and frankly what most people I think are familiar with if you grew up like I did

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and had a church history like I have is we were taught doctrine and we would call that systematic

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: theology and in systematic theology we are kind of combing and collecting from the bible to

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: create a comprehensive coherent summary let's say a summary of of what the bible teaches on

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: something like topics yeah sin judgment the image of god those kind of things

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: so biblical theology is different from that here's the definition I give for it in my biblical

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: theology workshops for women I say biblical theology is a way of understanding and approaching

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the bible that recognizes that even though the bible is made up of various kinds of literature

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and was written over centuries by 40 human authors it is really telling one cohesive

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: story about what god is doing in the world through christ biblical theology recognizes

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that the bible has a number of central themes that span from genesis to revelation each

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: serving to communicate a coherent message about the person and work of christ so in biblical theology

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: rather than creating a coherent summary of what the bible says about a topic

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: rather it's more about themes that develop and if we think about a story you know a story usually

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it begins with some characters and a setting and there's some kind of crisis

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and then there's all of this developing action and it comes to a climax where the crisis is resolved

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the story resolves and the story of the bible follows exactly that pattern

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I grew up being taught a lot of the stories in the bible yeah separate and

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: diverse yeah but not connected I mean I'd be pretty embarrassed actually Jonathan for you

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and your listeners to know how recent it was that I could actually articulate the basic storyline

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: of the bible which you know is a lot of israel's history in the old testament and then moving

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: into the old testament I mean I have had this collection of all of these stories

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but I couldn't have put them on a timeline in the proper order and so what difference does that make

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: well it makes a huge difference yeah it means that I'm not getting how those smaller stories

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: fit into the larger story and therefore I'm probably misinterpreting to them I'm probably

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: not making them about who christ is and what he accomplished but rather I'm probably taking those

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: stories and trying to come up with something that they tell me about what I'm supposed to do

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and who I'm supposed to be and it's not that those stories have no implications in that

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: regard but the first thing we must see is what they have to tell us about who christ is and

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: what he has accomplished which is he's the central theme of the whole of scripture

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god I mean that prologue

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: from john really kind of sets in stone and you know we think about the proto ewing galeon you

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: know to use a big greek term but that the first gospel that pre-gospel which is from genesis

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: 315 that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent and so if scripture is all this

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: anticipating of that one who will come yes but you're right if we read our scripture is just this

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of historical narrative and we're just sort of plotting along and we're just waiting for this one

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: thing the stories just feel disconnected and I think like you said it we try really hard to

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: connect them to our lives to ourselves and then it becomes not a chrystocentric text but an

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: anthropocentric text and by that meaning it's not a christ center text it is a man-centered

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: text so what does the bible say about me I'm the main player I'm the main character and I'm sure in

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: your sort of preparation and work in this field you've surely picked up on what the implications

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of that are for people's lives when they become the center of the story absolutely it becomes all

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: about me what I'm supposed to do and you know what that's a really heavy burden

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a really heavy burden and and it's just not the gospel yeah it's not the gospel because

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the gospel is all about who christ is and what he has done and so the most urgent response when we

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: understand that it's about christ what he has done then the most urgent response that you and I can have

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: is not to try harder to be a better person but rather we must become joined to christ we must

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: be vitally joined to him by faith because as we see him throughout all of the scriptures

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: we see him from all of these different angles and that's what I love about teaching biblical theology

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: because what we do at the workshop is I introduce this idea of biblical themes themes

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that the divine author has written into his book that help us get to the main message

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: he wants us to get to so as you look at christ like gaze at him from all of these angles that the

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: biblical themes provide to us what happens is we see more clearly his beauty his sufficiency

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and his necessity and that's what we need to see most of all when we go to the bible now

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: some people will say well you know but my people they want something practical yeah we want to give

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: people something practical and I would say to you there is nothing more practical than the urgency

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of being joined to Jesus Christ which is their greatest need which is our greatest need our greatest

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: need and actually it's only as we see his beauty and sufficiency and necessity that we have any desire

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to obey the goal of my workshops as I head into them and I'm looking forward to a number of them

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: over this coming spring and into the fall here's what I pray for all the people who register and

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I go through their names I pray that they will love christ more and that the workshop will cause

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: them to long more for his return amen and I say that Jonathan because I don't know if you can relate

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: to this maybe you had fuller teaching growing up but you know most of my life my understanding

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of the christian life was I make a decision for christ I try really hard to live for him

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I go to heaven when I die right I can remember exactly where I was sitting

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and when it was when I first really heard teaching about the new heavens and the new earth

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: a renewed earth and I just thought how come I've never heard this before

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and as I thought it through I began to think about the fact that you know with all the funerals

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd been to where we read the verses about resurrection and that that's our hope that

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: we take hold of when we lose someone to death that's the essence of our hope is resurrection

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but I realized you know what I've never really thought through how my existence is going to be

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: different from the time when I die my soul goes to heaven to be with christ and my body goes in

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the ground so I'm separated body and soul that's going to happen one day yeah but I never thought

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: through so how is my existence going to be different after that resurrection day after the

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: day that christ returns and he raises up my body from the ground and I am once again body and soul

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but now with a glorified body that can never die I just never thought it through and so

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: this is one of the beautiful gifts I feel like I hope that a woman walk away from the

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: biblical theology workshop with that they've got a greater sense of the whole story

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: which makes a difference in their story that their life in christ is not simply go to heaven

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: when you die and live forever with some kind of spirit with nobody existence but no if christ's

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: story and the next big event in the story is his bodily return and his ridding the whole of creation

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: of the curse that has infected it when his blessings will flow far as the curse is found

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's our glorious future and that's what I want to set hearts on is this glorious future

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that the bible is giving to us again and again to set our hearts on because we don't want something

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: less than that yeah I wonder if you could give us a little sneak peek is there one particular theme

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you could kind of put out there for us you've done bodily resurrection but another theme that

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe comes up through scripture that you absolutely you give out to the ladies

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: a little appetizer oh it's it's awfully hard for me to choose you know I wrote a book

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: called even better than eden and that book is nine chapters and each chapter I take a

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: particular theme and I tell the story of the bible from beginning to end with according to that theme

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but uh let's see I love the way the bible is the story of the lamb

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: mm at the very beginning of the bible's story when adam and eve sin god comes and he covers them

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: with skins it doesn't tell us it's a lamb but yeah certainly we know from the next chapter

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: that abel was a keeper of sheep but that story really gets going in the bible when we get to

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: genesis 22 yes when abraham is told to take his son that he loves isaac up on mount mariah

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and offer him as a sacrifice so what's happening there is this firstborn son is in a sense the

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: representative of the family and it's a picture of offering him to cover the family's sin and

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: so there's abraham and he's preparing to plunge in the knife and god stops him and instead there is a

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: ram whose head is caught in a thorny thicket which by the way just right there this head

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: surrounded by thorns we're already getting kind of hints of what i think it's intended to point

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah so there this ram dies in place of this one person isaac and we continue reading we get to

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: exodus and we read about the plagues that come down on egypt as moses is seeking the release

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of god's people from pharaoh and the nine plagues have been terrible but the tenth one's going to

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: be the worst yeah the death angel is going to come down and so instructions are given for the israeli

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: there's only one way to not have your firstborn son die and that is they are to take a lamb into the

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: household a lamb that's the appropriate size for this one family and um they're going to keep

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that lamb in the house for 14 days and i like to say about the time everybody's attached to the

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: lamb because he's been in the house with them yeah you yeah it's become a family friend right

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly and they're going to slit its throat and they're going to take that blood and paint it

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: over the door sill of the house so that when that death angel comes down he will pass over that

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: house and so in this picture we have uh this one lamb dying to cover the sins of one family

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we get to levitychus and in levitychus we're told about the day of atonement when they'll bring

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: two goats to the tabernacle and the priest will confess the sins of the people over one of them

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and send him out into the wilderness this beautiful picture of their sins being carried far away

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: of the other one he'll confess the sins over this other goat and they will cut his throat

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and he will be offered as a sacrifice but and that blood is going to be sprinkled on the curtain

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that goes into the most holy place and it tells us to wash away the sins of the nation yeah so we've

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: got one lamb for one person and one lamb for one household or family and then one lamb for one nation

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we turn the page to the gospels and we get to john one and john the baptist looks up

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: he sees jesus walking toward him and he says to everyone behold the lamb of god who takes away the

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: sins of the world so here is the lamb who is of such worth that his once for all sacrifice

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: is valuable enough worthy enough to cover the sins of one world for all of those who will be joined

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to him by faith which is another promise that comes from the old testament that nations will come in

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and we can't understand what john even means by the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: world unless really we've been tracing this story of the lamb exactly it's so interesting i mean

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that comes at the very beginning of that gospel and i just always kind of wonder how does john

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00]: see that but it's by inspiration of the holy spirit certainly because this is you know three years

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: before the cross but of course as we follow the story we know what it will mean for jesus to be the

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: lamb the the same week all of those Passover lambs are being herded into Jerusalem jesus will

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_00]: enter Jerusalem that's right and he will be offered as a sacrifice on the cross yeah but the story of

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the lamb doesn't end there and none of this the stories all themes biblical themes come to a climax

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in the life death and resurrection of jesus christ but the story doesn't end there because they all

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: resolve into the new creation yes and so when we get to revelation john he's invited into

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the heavenly throne room and he's looking for this lion and he looks up and he sees

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: he writes a lamb looking as though it has been slain this is not a defeated lamb this is a

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: triumphant lamb he is seated on the throne exercising his power and yet he is a lamb who's been

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: glorified through suffering yeah and the evidence of his suffering is still there and he is there

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: his blood has purified his people we read throughout revelation all those who enter into this place

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: it's because their the robes have been washed white in the blood of the lamb and actually at the very

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: end of the bible we are still reading about this lamb in revelation 21 and 22 where the story

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: comes to a climax when we get to spend eternity in this garden city temple where it says the light is

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: the lamb yeah so that's a whole theme from beginning to end and that's just one there are

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: so many that are so beautiful but it makes your heart sing doesn't it it does and i hope everyone

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: listening is hearing this and just rejoicing over one even if it's new to you even if it's old to you

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you know you can't help but just get excited about just the richness the imagery you think of the

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: timeline of which all of this is progressively revealed and the lights are coming on for you

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you know i don't know how you can you could just continue to sit in darkness and say i don't

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_02]: get it if your heart belongs to christ you just rejoice over this this is the good news well it is

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so much fun at these biblical theology workshops jonathan because what i do is first of all i show

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: them some themes that they can see in just in they seem begin in genesis one through three

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and can see how they come to a resolution in revelation 21 and 22 and then i take a theme at

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the workshop i use the theme of tabernacle temple dwelling place and we just walk through it we see

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: it in creation in the fall and then the rest of the pentateuch and the history books and the wisdom

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: books and the prophets and the gospels and the epistles and in the cross resurrection ascension

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: pentecost and then in the consummation yeah and then i assign them a theme to try to trace

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: through all of those and to be honest with you if it's new to you it's challenging even

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: isn't new to you it's challenging but i think the fun of it is it gets i tell women i want you to

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: engage your curious mind with the bible you know we we live in a time and as somebody who writes a

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of books yeah i'm glad that i can write some books that help people understand the bible

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: i am so grateful for that privilege and opportunity but i think sometimes many of us get bored

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: with bible reading or devotions because we've kind of limited it to reading what someone else

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: has made a discovery and is sharing with us and i really hopeful that as i'm able to teach some

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: of these skills of tracing these themes throughout the scriptures that it will infuse those who

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm teaching with a hunger and a curiosity to try to search out some of these themes and

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: make some of these discoveries themselves yeah there's something powerful about coming across

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: something like that and then of course you can find the confirmation of you know whether that's

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: right or wrong you know elsewhere to help you but we do have the spirit within us and he's shining

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: lights on on so much for us but if we're hungering and thirsting for that righteousness he'll

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: reveal those things to us and that's such a special gift that god's given to us but

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you're right i think oftentimes we turn to scripture and we we we just sort of read it and then think

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: about what does it mean to me i don't know move on to the next thing yeah you know and you miss out

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: on uh another thing that i saw you wrote you know there's parts of scripture where we just sort

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: of say what is that you know what what's what's going on in that epistle or what's going on in

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that you know minor prophet i i don't know let's just skip it i've never really heard

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: anyone teach on it you know go to the obscure stuff uh all scripture is god breathed and there's

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: such a joy in going to the obscure and finding rich treasures in it and well i i think the at least

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: the part of the bible i studied the least through most of my life is the old testament major

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and minor prophets sure and i think a lot of people can relate to that and i think the reason

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: is strange well but also when we read a book we want the story to be chronological right and the

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: old testament doesn't cooperate with us in that regard there's no rules yeah yeah you know it

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't go in that chronological order and if most of us don't have a solid grip on the storyline

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: of the bible and i think a lot of people are like me where you would like maybe you could do it

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty good you get to david okay you got that you know Solomon followed after him

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and then from there it's all fuzzy and you know the whole divided kingdom northern kingdom exile

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: southern kingdom exile return i mean all of that was just a huge fuzzy mess in my head even though i

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: had so much bible teaching so much of my life and so if that's the case for you well of course

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you won't study the major and minor prophets because they cannot make any sense to you right

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: unless you understand the context and yeah you have to understand who are they talking to the northern

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: kingdom the southern kingdom both is it before exile during exile after exile and so that basic

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: storyline is essential to making sense and so what i like to say is that if we don't have that what

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: we do with the prophets is you know the prophets are basically combinations you know there are

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: these oracles which can sometimes be circular but what you have is the prophet he usually talks about

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: sin judgment and hope and so what we typically do if we don't know you know the storyline to fit

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: them into is we look for those hope sections because those sound really good to us oh yeah

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and we take hold of them and try to figure out you know something to do with them because it's

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: going to sound really good if we just impress these promises on people and they're going to love

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it and feel all warm and fuzzy which is not a terrible thing but it's right we want to study the

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: prophets in a way that we're giving the whole of the message that's intended and so figuring out

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: how they fit in the storyline is important to being able to do that i wanted to ask you two

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: things one what have you found are some of the obstacles for individuals and people and maybe

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: we've just discussed them maybe it's just you know we're not clear and so we just sort of plow

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: through it or is there ever like a situation where it's like a pride issue like no no no

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: i know my bible i've memorized my verses i know my historical sequencing i don't need this sort of

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: outside thought process biblical theology i don't need that i don't know if you've ever encountered

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: anything like that or just obstacles that would stand in the way of people you know again

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: allowing the lights to come on and see the whole room for what it is i don't know jonathan i i just

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: know my experience is i mean i've been doing these biblical theology workshops since 2019 and

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: i originally started them i thought i'll do this a year or so and here i am i'm still doing them

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: because they are so much fun and what makes them so much fun is when i walk into a room

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and the women are there because they want to be there they want to learn

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but if i've got an audience who loves christ yeah and loves the bible but they've never seen

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: how the bible fits together and how how all of their disparate collection of bible stories and

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: knowledge fits together in such a way to glorify christ and to see christ from every part of it

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00]: what happens is it's an explosion of joy it honestly is i mean maybe sometimes there's a

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: resistance maybe there can be a sense of pride especially maybe if there is just that sense

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of well i've never heard this before and i've been in the church my whole life i teach the

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: bible and i've never seen it before i don't know maybe those aren't those people don't talk to me

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but because that much they leave um or i do maybe i think sometimes people think they've always gotten

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: this maybe because they think about old testament prophecies and they have maybe always seen how

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the old testament prophesies about christ and by that i'm talking about you know things like

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: be born in bethlehem and those kinds of prophetic things 53 type things yeah but maybe they haven't

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: been able to see how you can see christ in types like the ark you know that that how the ark shows

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: us what it's what it's like for us to hide in christ yeah and be saved in the storm which is

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: from peter's epistle right i mean there's there the testament actually outlines a lot of

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: those things but but even still i think there can be unfamiliarity with with even something like that

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i i guess there is something if you've been in the bible your whole life and you've

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: studied under good teachers which i did for most of my life sure we tend to think there

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: can't be something out there that i've just never heard but i know for me you know i was in

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: my 40s i think when i first began to hear yeah biblical theological teachers and you know

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: for me what it was when i really grasped what was happening in luke 24

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: yes that this scene these two disciples there you know they're they've been in

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00]: serusalem and they saw jesus dying the cross and they saw him put in the tomb and they heard some

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: mumblings that maybe he's risen from the dead but they're walking to their home in imeas

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: dejected disappointed this stranger comes along they don't even know it's jesus and he's like

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you know what's up with you and they they say well you know we thought he was the one

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: we thought he was the one who's going to redeem israel and jesus says to them oh foolish ones

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: so slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken was it not necessary that the christ should

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: suffer before being glorified and so what's jesus saying he's saying to them like if you'd

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: really been reading your bibles that's right for them was the old testament if you've really

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: been reading your bibles then you wouldn't have been surprised that the messiah was going to suffer

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: before he was glorified but then the next line in luke 24 27 this is the verse that changed my life

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: it says beginning with moses and the prophets he explained all things concerning himself yeah

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and i just remember like okay whoa like yeah so what did he point to in genesis yeah right

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and say this is about me what did he point to in exodus what did he point to in solmes

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: what did he point to in habacic and i just realized i've got to go back to kindergarten

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of my understanding of how to read the old testament and so in a sense i did

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: i asked one of my one of my publishers could i write the one year book of discovering jesus

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00]: in the old testament and they said yes and so i wrote a one-year daily devotional

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: where i worked my way through genesis through malachi but i didn't do it out of like i know all

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: this stuff and so now i'm gonna share it with people i did it for my own discovery and re-education

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and thereby shared it with people which is really honestly what most of my books are

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: there's something i think i don't know this and i want to figure it out and so i approach it as

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a learner i think that helps people when i read my book so rather than hearing from an

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: expert who's just known yes someone that's going on the journey with you yeah i hope so well it's

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: funny because you described that moment when all the women are together and they're hearing these

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: things as an explosion of joy and i'm thinking about even that line in luke 24 where they say

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_02]: where our heart's not burning within us while he spoke you know so there's this it's like

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the spirit is saying yes this is what i've been wanting you to know you know um so i wonder

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: do you have a story or two of someone that just you know the lights were switched on and they just

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: were overwhelmed well i can remember early on uh when i was first teaching my study the promised one

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: seeing jesus in genesis i was at my church and there was this godly older woman who was one of

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: the small group leaders and she grabbed me before the small group leaders meeting and she just

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: looked at me so serious and with tears in her eyes she just said to me how come i've never heard this

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: before and i just said to her i i get it me too i'm not sure i can explain exactly why although i do

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: have a few ideas about that but all i can say is you know it's not something novel i mean if

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we go back in the history of christianity and if we go to some other countries that maybe where they

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: aren't so much pragmatic americans um this sense of seeing christ through all the scriptures wasn't

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: necessarily lost everywhere what i saw in her was tears in her eyes sadness over reading the bible

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: so many years in lesser ways because as she was seeing christ in the scriptures

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: it was so moving her and i think doing exactly what i told you is my goal in my workshops you know

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: enabling her to love christ more and long more for his return that's what we want amen

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: well we will have a link to dates and information in the show notes for nancy guffrey's

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: biblical theology workshop for women and we do encourage you if you are in one of the cities

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: or states where nancy is speaking that you hopefully you've gotten just enough of a taste

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to where you want more and we'll have a link for a few of your books on there as well

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and so it is with the great privilege and pleasure that i get to say thank you nancy for taking the

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: time to be on candid conversations thank you so much jonathan i really enjoyed this conversation

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: pleasure candid is a podcast from leading the way with dr michael usaff don't forget to connect

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