Episode 248: Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age: Melissa Kruger

[00:00:00] We have not just Divine wisdom, we have Divine help because we can call on God to do what we cannot do.

[00:00:07] We cannot save our child, we cannot change our child.

[00:00:10] We cannot make them do really much of anything, but God can work in ways that we can't understand.

[00:00:21] Hello and welcome to Candid where we never settle for less than the truth.

[00:00:25] I'm your host Jonathan Youssef.

[00:00:27] This week we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions and take a candid look at the Christian faith.

[00:00:34] Today we have a special repeat guest with us, Melissa Kruger.

[00:00:38] She is the vice president of discipleship programming at the Gospel Coalition.

[00:00:42] She is the author of multiple books including Growing Together, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood

[00:00:49] and the popular children's book Wherever You Go I Want You to Know which we have gotten for our son

[00:00:56] and then we've had his teachers write inscriptions each year, whoever his teacher is.

[00:01:02] And I think you have a special book that allows for that.

[00:01:05] Her husband Mike who has also been on the podcast president of Reformed Theological Seminary

[00:01:10] and they and their three children are in Charlotte, North Carolina.

[00:01:14] Melissa, thank you so much for coming back on the Candid Conversations.

[00:01:18] Great, thanks for having me back.

[00:01:20] Okay, you've got a new book out and it is called Parenting with Hope, Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age.

[00:01:30] Now I imagine this book is flying off the bookshelf so you've probably shattered sales records.

[00:01:36] I don't think so but...

[00:01:38] It should.

[00:01:40] That'd be great.

[00:01:41] I think this is something the church hears a lot about and it's always so helpful to have books that are written

[00:01:49] from a helpful biblical perspective and giving people the foundations and the equipping and reminders that we can often forget.

[00:01:58] So tell us a little bit about sort of the journey on Parenting with Hope.

[00:02:02] What sort of got the start of the book?

[00:02:05] I was approached by a publisher who had read my book Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood

[00:02:12] and they said, we'd really like you to take some of these principles and apply it to parenting teens

[00:02:18] and get more in a trade book forum.

[00:02:20] Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood is a Bible study for women

[00:02:23] and I actually wrote that one for a friend for her baby shower.

[00:02:26] It wasn't intended for publishing.

[00:02:29] I was writing it for her.

[00:02:31] So this one, really they came with the question and I was very unsure of myself.

[00:02:38] You know, I've raised three teenagers and so it was kind of that, ooh, and I was just out of the season

[00:02:45] but when I realized what I did walking with God in the Season of Motherhood,

[00:02:48] I couldn't write that book now because I'm not in that moment.

[00:02:53] The teen years are very fresh to me.

[00:02:55] I still have tons...

[00:02:56] I still have one teenager, she's 17.

[00:02:59] I have a 17 year old, 20 year old and a 23 year old and so I'm still...

[00:03:04] It's fresh enough to me but the thing I also realized is there's no one who's 60

[00:03:10] who can write on what did they do about cell phones because they didn't exist.

[00:03:14] They can't talk about what did they do with social media.

[00:03:16] They can't talk about some of these sports and activities

[00:03:19] because it was totally different 20 years ago.

[00:03:21] And so I realized, okay, it's probably a good thing to have someone fresh on the season

[00:03:27] and I also realized the second thing, I was a high school math teacher

[00:03:32] and I always say in my other life.

[00:03:34] And so I had taken a lot of teen development classes

[00:03:38] and I realized this really did help me in the parenting of teens.

[00:03:42] There's a lot of common grace insights by people who have studied

[00:03:45] just what works and what doesn't

[00:03:47] and I realized I had those things in my back pocket

[00:03:50] and we do that a lot with young children.

[00:03:53] We read all the developmental milestones.

[00:03:55] We know about what your two-year-olds should be doing, what your three years...

[00:03:58] When's the last time you read a developmental milestone

[00:04:01] about your nine-year-old or your 10-year-old?

[00:04:03] And we stop being learners of what kids are able to do

[00:04:08] and what they should be doing.

[00:04:09] And so I wanted to put some of that in the book as well.

[00:04:13] Okay, so I love the way that you break down the book.

[00:04:16] So it's broken down into three parts.

[00:04:18] You give the basics which is you call the foundations of a Christian home.

[00:04:23] The battle fighting for the better portion

[00:04:27] which we'll get into that.

[00:04:28] And then the blessing, cultivating a home where teens thrive.

[00:04:33] Talk us through a little bit of the part one, two and three.

[00:04:36] That's right.

[00:04:37] So part one might come off as...

[00:04:40] Well, we all know this, right?

[00:04:41] Right.

[00:04:42] If you're in the church, you should know and understand that.

[00:04:45] Exactly.

[00:04:46] And in a lot of ways this is being a Christian 101

[00:04:50] but I remind parents of it because I think sometimes we get so bogged down

[00:04:56] with all the things we're not doing as parents

[00:04:58] that I want to remind them.

[00:05:00] The most important thing you do as a human is be in God's word,

[00:05:04] be in prayer and be in the church.

[00:05:07] Doing that is going to already set you ahead of parents all around the world.

[00:05:13] I mean, that is such a gift to your child to be a parent

[00:05:17] and regularly intaking from the Bible.

[00:05:20] Why?

[00:05:21] Because the Bible is not another just book on the shelf.

[00:05:24] It's actually divine wisdom.

[00:05:25] We have the ability to tap into divine wisdom.

[00:05:28] And then secondly, we have not just divine wisdom,

[00:05:30] we have divine help because we can call on God to do what we cannot do.

[00:05:34] We cannot save our child.

[00:05:35] We cannot change our child.

[00:05:37] We cannot make them do really much of anything

[00:05:40] but God can work in ways that we can understand.

[00:05:43] And then the community of the church is just something that,

[00:05:47] I mean, I think we're seeing with the epidemic of team loneliness

[00:05:50] and anxiety and isolation, all these things.

[00:05:53] The church is this institution that what, guess what?

[00:05:56] It answers that.

[00:05:57] You know, it's this welcoming place where you have 80 year olds

[00:06:01] and you have eight year olds.

[00:06:03] And so I don't think we can talk about parenting with hope

[00:06:06] without talking about what's the foundation of our hope.

[00:06:08] It's actually that God's word is true.

[00:06:11] So, and living in light of God's word is hopeful.

[00:06:14] And so we're not left alone on the journey.

[00:06:16] So that's the basics.

[00:06:17] Yeah.

[00:06:18] The battle really talks about our battles.

[00:06:21] And again, this is a book about being the parent of a teen.

[00:06:24] It's not a book about how to make your teen perfect.

[00:06:27] I don't think that book exists.

[00:06:29] That's the whole.

[00:06:30] And if it does, you should burn it.

[00:06:32] That's the only fierce job is to change us and make us different.

[00:06:36] And so the second part is the battle.

[00:06:38] I think we often think is sex, drugs, rock and roll,

[00:06:41] or some other things we're trying to prevent our teen from.

[00:06:44] But I would say it's actually good things robbing us of the best things.

[00:06:48] The battle is with our own idolatry as parents.

[00:06:50] We are all coming into this game with hopes and dreams for our kids.

[00:06:55] And sometimes those hopes and dreams turn idolatrous.

[00:06:58] I focus on scholarship and achievement, sports and activities,

[00:07:02] and then social acceptance.

[00:07:04] I think those are the cultural idols we have in the West

[00:07:06] that are impressing upon us as parents.

[00:07:09] And we have to battle about those.

[00:07:11] Yeah, that's what I love about the book is that it's not prescriptions.

[00:07:16] I think when people are struggling with their kids, what do they want?

[00:07:21] They just tell me what to do so that this will stop

[00:07:24] or so I could take this away.

[00:07:26] And I think the way that your book is written is

[00:07:30] it's not about if you do A, B will happen.

[00:07:34] Now there's a little bit of element of that

[00:07:36] because you just mentioned the foundations earlier, which is

[00:07:39] well, you really need to be doing these practices.

[00:07:43] But you don't necessarily think, oh, being in church and being in the word

[00:07:47] and being in prayer, you don't necessarily feel the direct correlation

[00:07:51] to your parenting, but it is there.

[00:07:54] I have friends who have raised their kids the exact same way

[00:07:58] and one rebels and the other one is a blessing to the family

[00:08:03] and it's like what did we do wrong?

[00:08:06] And then even your husband was speaking yesterday about the paradox

[00:08:10] of goddess sovereign over all things and yet we're still called to be good parents.

[00:08:14] That's right.

[00:08:15] So there's that, we don't fully understand the mystery of that

[00:08:18] but we know what we're called to and so we have to walk it out.

[00:08:20] That's right.

[00:08:21] So as a parent I'm called to fight my idolatry.

[00:08:25] I'm actually not called to control my child.

[00:08:28] Right.

[00:08:29] And so often what you see is we go into control mode when we're fearful

[00:08:33] and the Bible says trust and obey.

[00:08:36] Yes.

[00:08:37] And I would say obey and trust.

[00:08:39] Right.

[00:08:40] So you follow God's call and then you trust.

[00:08:43] Yeah, you trust that you're doing everything you can to walk in a manner worthy

[00:08:46] of the gospel in front of the Lord, in front of your kids

[00:08:49] and then you have to trust and you will only have the ability to trust

[00:08:52] if you're building on the foundation.

[00:08:54] Right.

[00:08:55] So the Bible always goes back to that foundation and I'm talking about

[00:08:58] how to be a human, honestly.

[00:09:00] I mean this is if you want to know how to succeed in your place of work,

[00:09:03] oh you need the word, you need prayer, you need the church.

[00:09:05] If you want to know how to be single in the life of the church,

[00:09:08] you need the word, you need prayer, you need the church.

[00:09:10] But I say it again and again because it's Psalm 1.

[00:09:13] Yeah.

[00:09:14] You know, I mean blessed is the man who doesn't lie in the,

[00:09:16] you know, doesn't sit in the seat of a Microsoft and say,

[00:09:18] oh what does he do?

[00:09:19] Oh, he's the lightest in the law of the Lord and on it.

[00:09:21] He meditates day and night.

[00:09:22] He's like a tree planted by a strength, whatever he does,

[00:09:25] prospers.

[00:09:26] So yeah, I actually think this is wisdom for life.

[00:09:29] Yeah.

[00:09:30] And so I definitely think we have to start there and then we have

[00:09:33] to be battling our own idols.

[00:09:35] And then the last section on the blessing is how do we create

[00:09:38] homes of acceptance, availability and affection?

[00:09:42] And I, yeah, those words have to be in our,

[00:09:45] in our world today, acceptance does not mean an acceptance

[00:09:47] of sin, but it means an acceptance of who they are.

[00:09:50] Right.

[00:09:51] And what I mean by that is we see a lot of curated children.

[00:09:54] Right.

[00:09:55] And what I mean by that is parents trying to make the perfect

[00:09:59] child who plays the sport, who plays the instrument,

[00:10:02] who has a, you know, amazing GPA, who gets into the Ivy Leagues

[00:10:06] and all this stuff like because that's a representation of me

[00:10:10] is what we're really trying to do.

[00:10:11] And so rather than saying, you know, my kid's not that

[00:10:14] great at school, but I can teach hard work even if

[00:10:17] they're not going to be a lawyer or a doctor.

[00:10:19] That's okay.

[00:10:20] You know, and so that's what I mean by acceptance,

[00:10:22] accepting who the Lord is creating them to be and letting

[00:10:26] that glorify him, you know, whatever it might be.

[00:10:29] Yeah.

[00:10:30] There's a lot of this element of caught versus taught.

[00:10:33] Absolutely.

[00:10:34] Especially as you think about the idolatry and what you

[00:10:37] prioritize in your life, your kids are by default

[00:10:41] looking at you, watching you.

[00:10:44] You're one of the greatest sources of influence on them.

[00:10:47] And so they're going to model themselves after what mom

[00:10:51] and dad prioritize.

[00:10:52] The funny thing is that when parents look down the track

[00:10:55] and say, why are they, why are they like this?

[00:10:57] And it's like sometimes it's a little bit of look in the

[00:10:59] mirror, you know, what were they catching even if

[00:11:02] you were teaching into the different trajectory

[00:11:04] and direction.

[00:11:06] Okay.

[00:11:07] So acceptance, what about availability and yeah,

[00:11:10] I talk about this.

[00:11:11] I say you want to be available, but you want

[00:11:13] to understand your limitations.

[00:11:15] Look, you know, I mean, parents cannot be at

[00:11:17] everything and actually believe it's helpful for

[00:11:20] our kids to know that they're not the center of

[00:11:22] our universe.

[00:11:23] They do not have the gravitational weight to bear

[00:11:26] us is what I like to say.

[00:11:28] Just, you know, like the earth cannot support the

[00:11:31] sun revolving around it.

[00:11:33] It was never intended to.

[00:11:35] We are not created to revolve around our children.

[00:11:38] We're created to revolve around God and we're

[00:11:41] helping them do the same.

[00:11:43] And kids who grow up in a home where the parent is

[00:11:46] rooted and grounded in the Lord, that takes an

[00:11:50] amazing burden off them.

[00:11:52] I mean, you've heard the phrase, you're only as

[00:11:54] happy as your least happy child.

[00:11:56] I think that is like poor child, poor least happy

[00:11:59] child.

[00:12:00] No, my contentment, Joy, where are they supposed

[00:12:02] to come from?

[00:12:03] It's supposed to be rooted in the Lord.

[00:12:05] Why are we supposed to be content with what we

[00:12:07] have because he has said never will I leave

[00:12:09] contentment rest.

[00:12:10] And we have to be people fighting for that as

[00:12:12] parents to free our kids up from our own

[00:12:15] maybe tendency to put our hopes and dreams in

[00:12:19] them.

[00:12:20] And then affection a home of warmth.

[00:12:23] Yeah, I read an article just recently.

[00:12:26] I can't remember where it was.

[00:12:27] It was in a secular paper and they basically

[00:12:31] said, you know, really what you do as a

[00:12:34] parent doesn't matter, but if you love them

[00:12:36] it makes a difference.

[00:12:37] And I was kind of like, huh, that's really

[00:12:39] interesting because I do think there's a lot

[00:12:41] to that.

[00:12:42] I think it's a little bit empty because I think

[00:12:44] one's usually reflected in the other right?

[00:12:46] Yeah, exactly.

[00:12:47] And you need truth to guide what love is.

[00:12:49] So there's there's that.

[00:12:51] But I did once here.

[00:12:53] This was on the Oprah Winfrey show a million

[00:12:55] years ago when that show was still on.

[00:12:57] She was interviewing, I think I believe it's

[00:12:59] Toni Morrison and Toni Morrison said one

[00:13:01] thing she had learned when a child walks

[00:13:03] into the room.

[00:13:04] She said, light up when that child walks

[00:13:06] in the room.

[00:13:07] And she said, what kids tend to get when you

[00:13:10] walk in the room is your critical gaze.

[00:13:12] They tend to get, huh, you're sure it's not

[00:13:15] tucked in.

[00:13:16] Hey, tie your shoes.

[00:13:17] Hey, make sure you're getting ready for this.

[00:13:19] And this gets even worse as the teen

[00:13:21] years because look, they lose the cuteness.

[00:13:23] They're cute when they're walking in it too.

[00:13:25] So you might light up just because they're

[00:13:27] so cute.

[00:13:28] It's worn off.

[00:13:29] Yeah, but when they're walking in pimply

[00:13:31] and smelly and dirty and they haven't

[00:13:33] been in the room for a week, you still need

[00:13:35] to light up when they walk.

[00:13:36] And I think there's something about that

[00:13:38] that will translate for the rest of their

[00:13:40] lives that they will know, I am deeply

[00:13:42] loved.

[00:13:43] I light up even when they've done

[00:13:45] something wrong.

[00:13:46] Our correction should not be coldness.

[00:13:48] Our correction can still be full warmth.

[00:13:50] And so we want to light up when these

[00:13:52] people walk in the room because

[00:13:54] they're made in the image of God.

[00:13:56] They have been given to us for this

[00:13:58] time to raise.

[00:13:59] And so we want to shower them with

[00:14:01] affection.

[00:14:02] And there can be wrong views of affection

[00:14:04] like trying to buy them.

[00:14:06] I mean, there are wrong ways, but I'm just

[00:14:08] about genuine love and interest in a person.

[00:14:10] That's always going to be a great

[00:14:12] basis for a child to go into the world

[00:14:14] with.

[00:14:15] Yeah.

[00:14:16] Let's talk a little bit about how the

[00:14:18] gospel shapes our approach in parenting.

[00:14:20] What are the biblical principles that

[00:14:22] should guide us as we're raising

[00:14:24] children?

[00:14:25] The first is that I'm the oldest

[00:14:27] center in the room usually.

[00:14:29] So I'm expecting my 12-year-old to have

[00:14:32] their whole act together at 12.

[00:14:34] Wow, that's pretty ungracious of me,

[00:14:36] right?

[00:14:37] Because here I am at 50 and I don't have

[00:14:39] my act together.

[00:14:40] And so I think the one way

[00:14:42] parents can lead is to be the first

[00:14:44] to apologize.

[00:14:45] I always say my response is my

[00:14:47] responsibility.

[00:14:48] And so if I, let's say a kid has done

[00:14:51] something wrong, but you know, I

[00:14:53] manage their wrong way.

[00:14:55] And so I'm going to say,

[00:14:57] you know, I managed their wrongness

[00:14:59] by yelling and losing my temper

[00:15:01] and being impatient and kind.

[00:15:03] I got to own that.

[00:15:05] That's on me.

[00:15:06] I can still hold them to a standard

[00:15:09] while holding myself to a standard.

[00:15:11] And so we have to do that.

[00:15:13] So I say one way grace-based

[00:15:15] homes begin is by being the chief

[00:15:17] apologizer in your home.

[00:15:19] Own it.

[00:15:20] And you know what?

[00:15:21] The kids will learn.

[00:15:22] They will learn from that.

[00:15:24] And they will be able to give good

[00:15:26] apologies in their life.

[00:15:27] And you will benefit from it.

[00:15:29] I've had all my kids come to me

[00:15:31] and be like, hey, I'm sorry I acted

[00:15:33] that way about that.

[00:15:34] They did it on their own accord.

[00:15:36] I think it just became the

[00:15:37] conversation of the household that

[00:15:39] was safe to do.

[00:15:40] It was going to be met with love.

[00:15:42] It wasn't going to be met with

[00:15:43] the silent treatment, you know,

[00:15:44] all of those things.

[00:15:45] And so I think a home with grace

[00:15:47] is going to be a home with

[00:15:48] apologies.

[00:15:49] It's going to be a home that

[00:15:50] accepts that failure is going to

[00:15:52] happen.

[00:15:53] I mean, the Lord's prayer

[00:15:54] presupposes forgive us our debts

[00:15:56] as we forgive our debtors.

[00:15:58] So there's going to be sin.

[00:16:00] We're living flesh on flesh in

[00:16:02] these homes.

[00:16:03] And so it presupposes that we're

[00:16:05] going to need grace, but it also

[00:16:07] presupposes that there is a

[00:16:09] standard.

[00:16:10] So we do not lower standards.

[00:16:11] We keep the standards, but we

[00:16:13] offer correction when the

[00:16:15] standard has not been kept

[00:16:17] and we offer love and grace

[00:16:19] in those moments as well.

[00:16:21] Well, and it's a requirement of

[00:16:22] being a disciple of Jesus is

[00:16:24] being a forgiver.

[00:16:26] And yeah, why not start

[00:16:28] at home?

[00:16:29] Not just forgiving, but asking for

[00:16:31] forgiveness.

[00:16:32] And I think you're right.

[00:16:33] It sets the tone for the family.

[00:16:35] But I think we can get caught

[00:16:37] up in, well, I'm the parent

[00:16:39] and I've got to be the one in

[00:16:41] control and in charge and I'm

[00:16:43] just giving directives to the

[00:16:44] little ones.

[00:16:45] It's hard, right?

[00:16:46] I mean, it's hard to admit to

[00:16:48] a little child that you've wronged

[00:16:50] you and you've been through them

[00:16:52] because you want to just say,

[00:16:54] who are you?

[00:16:55] Who are you to hold me accountable?

[00:16:57] But as the Lord's holding us

[00:16:59] accountable, let's elaborate a

[00:17:01] little bit on principles over

[00:17:03] prescriptions.

[00:17:04] We've talked a little bit about

[00:17:06] that, but as that relates to

[00:17:08] parenting.

[00:17:09] Yeah, I definitely think your

[00:17:11] principles in parenting can stay

[00:17:13] very much the same as kids go

[00:17:15] from two to 20, meaning

[00:17:17] certain principles like, oh,

[00:17:19] my child is the center and native grace.

[00:17:21] That's a principle.

[00:17:23] Yeah, my child's the center and needs

[00:17:25] correction.

[00:17:26] That's a principle.

[00:17:27] Now how I go about the practice

[00:17:29] of that correction is going to change

[00:17:31] greatly when they're two from when

[00:17:33] they're 12.

[00:17:34] And if we don't make those changes,

[00:17:36] we're going to find ourselves with very

[00:17:38] frustrated teenagers.

[00:17:39] And so one example I like to say

[00:17:41] is look, when your two-year-old

[00:17:43] makes a mistake, normally you need to

[00:17:45] offer correction right away.

[00:17:47] So if they do something wrong, they

[00:17:48] are not going to remember tomorrow

[00:17:50] what you're talking about.

[00:17:51] They live in a different little

[00:17:53] universe where every moment is a new

[00:17:55] moment.

[00:17:56] Whereas your 12-year-old, when they

[00:17:58] come in hot, and we all see 12-year-olds

[00:18:00] come in hot, they're slamming doors,

[00:18:02] they're in a mood, their hormones are

[00:18:04] going whatever, right then it's

[00:18:06] probably actually not the best time

[00:18:08] to offer correction or even confront

[00:18:10] them with, hey, you're really rude

[00:18:12] to me.

[00:18:13] I like to say if my friend came in

[00:18:15] and slammed the door, my first

[00:18:17] question would be, hey, how are you

[00:18:19] doing?

[00:18:20] Is everything okay?

[00:18:21] Or if my husband came in, like I'd

[00:18:23] ask a question.

[00:18:24] And I think our teens need that from

[00:18:26] us.

[00:18:27] They need us to live with them in an

[00:18:29] understanding way.

[00:18:30] And often we're real caught up in

[00:18:32] our pride and how we deserve

[00:18:34] to be talked to.

[00:18:35] And that's just very

[00:18:37] us-centered versus, hey, is

[00:18:39] everything okay?

[00:18:40] And maybe even to just say later

[00:18:42] in the day, like 6 p.m., 7 p.m.,

[00:18:46] when they've had some time to cool

[00:18:48] off, to go in and say, hey, you came

[00:18:50] and you seemed upset today.

[00:18:51] You want to talk about it?

[00:18:52] And they may say yes, they may say no.

[00:18:54] And then later on, things will

[00:18:56] soften.

[00:18:57] They will soften.

[00:18:58] And to be able to say, hey,

[00:19:00] what would have been a good way to

[00:19:02] come in today?

[00:19:03] That's a better time to have that

[00:19:05] conversation.

[00:19:06] And it may even be the next week.

[00:19:08] That's a better way to have that

[00:19:10] conversation than right away.

[00:19:11] So I think we had immediate

[00:19:13] time to think about how we

[00:19:15] have to be able to have that

[00:19:17] conversation.

[00:19:18] And I think it's a big

[00:19:20] thing to do right now.

[00:19:21] We're all young and it's really

[00:19:23] about applying wisdom to how and

[00:19:25] what we're going to correct.

[00:19:26] Look, thankfully, we do not have

[00:19:28] someone following us around all

[00:19:30] day correcting every little

[00:19:32] thing we do.

[00:19:33] I think sometimes parents of teens

[00:19:35] think I've got four years left.

[00:19:37] I've got to get this kid all

[00:19:39] sorted.

[00:19:40] You don't.

[00:19:41] But I was going to fight certain

[00:19:43] things.

[00:19:44] I wanted them to be truthful with

[00:19:46] me.

[00:19:47] I wanted them to have character.

[00:19:49] I wanted us to be able to have

[00:19:51] conversations.

[00:19:52] If that meant I had to deal with

[00:19:54] messy floors, I was going to deal

[00:19:56] with messy floors on there.

[00:19:57] They are.

[00:19:58] They lived up to that low

[00:20:00] expectation.

[00:20:01] I'm sure they love hearing that.

[00:20:03] You've introduced a topic that

[00:20:05] I wanted us to discuss, which

[00:20:07] is those stages of development

[00:20:09] that are children versus teens

[00:20:11] and what age is there a

[00:20:13] transformation.

[00:20:14] When your child's little, you're

[00:20:16] really in kind of a protection

[00:20:18] mode in terms of what they

[00:20:20] consume media-wise or

[00:20:22] literature or whatever it is.

[00:20:24] We have a responsibility for

[00:20:26] protecting them and not just

[00:20:28] exposing them to all the

[00:20:30] horrible things out there.

[00:20:31] But as they get older,

[00:20:33] parents can tend to lean into

[00:20:35] one or the other camp, which

[00:20:37] is keeping the hyper bubble wrap

[00:20:39] around their child and never

[00:20:41] letting them be exposed to

[00:20:42] anything or essentially

[00:20:44] letting them go out to the wolves

[00:20:46] at 12, 13, whatever.

[00:20:48] They're kind of almost drowning

[00:20:50] and I need help.

[00:20:51] I wish someone would have kind of

[00:20:53] held my hand a little bit here.

[00:20:55] That's a nuanced question I know

[00:20:57] but if we could talk about it in

[00:20:59] some sort of generalities and you

[00:21:01] can even use your own children as

[00:21:03] an example, help parents who are

[00:21:05] between period in their kids'

[00:21:08] lives, how do they sort of

[00:21:10] navigate that helpfully?

[00:21:11] Yeah, I think that transition

[00:21:13] is tough and it's full

[00:21:15] bumps and bruises.

[00:21:16] I called it in the book.

[00:21:18] I likened it to driving a

[00:21:19] stick shift car.

[00:21:20] You know, you have to be

[00:21:22] letting off the clutch the same

[00:21:23] time you're pressing the gas

[00:21:25] but you're going to probably

[00:21:26] as you're learning we're all

[00:21:27] going to stall.

[00:21:28] And that's pretty normal.

[00:21:32] But I would just say

[00:21:34] as they're heading into these

[00:21:36] years, teens still need our

[00:21:38] involvement but they do not need

[00:21:40] our over-involvement.

[00:21:41] And so as a parent I think

[00:21:43] we have to really step back

[00:21:45] and say, okay, I'm going to be

[00:21:47] involved.

[00:21:48] I'm going to make sure they're

[00:21:49] not out drinking, they're not

[00:21:50] doing illegal activities that

[00:21:52] could actually harm them.

[00:21:53] But I am not going to check

[00:21:56] their homework online.

[00:21:58] Okay, so this was not even an

[00:21:59] option when I was a teacher.

[00:22:01] I don't know why parents are

[00:22:02] doing this.

[00:22:03] So I always think back to when

[00:22:05] I was teaching the parents never

[00:22:07] saw the grades until the grades

[00:22:09] came out.

[00:22:10] Maybe they got a midterm grade

[00:22:12] thing.

[00:22:13] I have people in my life who are

[00:22:15] checking their kids' grades

[00:22:16] constantly and I'm like, why

[00:22:18] would I?

[00:22:19] I didn't know you could do that

[00:22:20] actually.

[00:22:21] I've got little kids so we're

[00:22:22] not in our kids' lives.

[00:22:23] Yeah well come the teen

[00:22:24] years they're finding out their

[00:22:25] kid missed one homework

[00:22:26] assignment and then they're

[00:22:27] all over them about it.

[00:22:28] And I'm like just let them

[00:22:29] let them bear that

[00:22:30] consequence.

[00:22:31] Let them bear the

[00:22:32] consequence of a zero.

[00:22:33] Yeah.

[00:22:34] This is a little bit of the

[00:22:35] like helicopter lawn mower

[00:22:36] parent mentality, right?

[00:22:37] That's right.

[00:22:38] That's right.

[00:22:39] And what happens is the

[00:22:41] mat child never knows what it's

[00:22:43] like to deal with failure.

[00:22:44] Right.

[00:22:45] And they actually need what I

[00:22:47] call safe failure because

[00:22:49] guess what we all fail at

[00:22:50] things.

[00:22:51] Like we all make mistakes.

[00:22:52] We all do dumb things along

[00:22:53] the way.

[00:22:54] You want to protect them from

[00:22:56] huge failure.

[00:22:57] Right.

[00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:59] Like you're going to go to

[00:23:00] jail for this type of thing.

[00:23:01] And even things that we know

[00:23:02] are particularly damaging for

[00:23:03] their souls.

[00:23:04] Like so we want to protect them

[00:23:06] as best we can, you know, and

[00:23:08] have good rules in our home.

[00:23:10] We don't want rule list homes

[00:23:11] but the over correction of

[00:23:14] being so over involved.

[00:23:16] Like I mean if you have

[00:23:17] teenagers they should be

[00:23:18] packing their own lunch.

[00:23:19] They should be getting

[00:23:20] themselves like I don't wake

[00:23:22] any of my teens up never have

[00:23:24] they get themselves up.

[00:23:26] They need to be at the

[00:23:27] family table for devotions

[00:23:29] at the time we always met

[00:23:30] down.

[00:23:31] Like they could be responsible

[00:23:33] for them and I never regret

[00:23:35] letting them be responsible

[00:23:36] for them.

[00:23:37] And so some of that is

[00:23:38] letting go of control

[00:23:41] and letting them and again

[00:23:43] like their room sometimes they

[00:23:44] did have to clean them.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:47] And you got to live in it too.

[00:23:48] They're the ones that have to

[00:23:49] live in it.

[00:23:50] And they really will own it

[00:23:51] if we let them.

[00:23:52] Another big thing was we

[00:23:53] started early with our kids

[00:23:54] having them like do chores

[00:23:55] and clean up the kitchen

[00:23:57] every night but what Mike

[00:23:58] and I had to do we had to

[00:24:00] leave the room because yes

[00:24:02] they would argue.

[00:24:03] Yes they would get mad at

[00:24:04] one another.

[00:24:05] Yes they would say I don't

[00:24:06] want to do it this way.

[00:24:07] Yes it was excruciatingly

[00:24:09] slow and not well done.

[00:24:11] And I'd come in and I'd look

[00:24:13] at the calendar and I'd be like

[00:24:14] yeah you feel the grit

[00:24:15] still on the counter kids

[00:24:16] and then do it again.

[00:24:18] Y'all get it right.

[00:24:19] And we'd walk back out

[00:24:20] because I couldn't handle

[00:24:21] the slowness at which

[00:24:22] they did it but if I had

[00:24:23] not given them the space

[00:24:25] to do it and fail and not

[00:24:26] do it perfectly they never

[00:24:27] learn or now they come home

[00:24:29] and they all know how to

[00:24:30] clean the kitchen.

[00:24:31] And that's a gift when they

[00:24:32] go to college because they

[00:24:33] get to college and my kids

[00:24:34] are like my roommates

[00:24:35] don't know how to clean

[00:24:36] the kitchen.

[00:24:40] Yeah yeah.

[00:24:41] So.

[00:24:42] Okay let's kind of steer

[00:24:44] a little bit into some of the

[00:24:46] battle things that are taking

[00:24:48] place without having to

[00:24:50] explain we live in a

[00:24:51] secular culture.

[00:24:52] How can parents maintain

[00:24:56] hope and raise their teens

[00:24:59] to follow Christ in the age

[00:25:01] and day in which we live

[00:25:03] where there's the social

[00:25:04] pressures on sexuality

[00:25:06] and defining truth

[00:25:08] and those sorts of things.

[00:25:09] How do you kind of help

[00:25:10] navigate that water?

[00:25:12] Yeah I think the earlier

[00:25:14] you can begin the better

[00:25:16] and some of this starts

[00:25:18] by having conversations about

[00:25:20] faith with your kids as

[00:25:21] young as you can.

[00:25:22] Mike and I were big

[00:25:23] believers in the

[00:25:24] Catholicism.

[00:25:25] They're of different versions

[00:25:27] we use the children's

[00:25:28] catechism and every night

[00:25:30] at the family table we did it

[00:25:31] and what I love about

[00:25:32] a catechism is the kids talk.

[00:25:34] It's not just the parents

[00:25:36] talking to us.

[00:25:37] Who made you?

[00:25:38] God.

[00:25:39] What else did God make?

[00:25:40] All things.

[00:25:41] Why did God make you

[00:25:42] and all things?

[00:25:43] Four is going.

[00:25:44] Okay you've already set

[00:25:45] their framework in such a

[00:25:46] better place than most

[00:25:47] kids walking into elementary

[00:25:48] school just because they

[00:25:49] know they're made in the

[00:25:50] image of God and that

[00:25:51] they're made to glorify

[00:25:52] him.

[00:25:53] So these things can start

[00:25:54] early.

[00:25:55] I think having those

[00:25:56] conversations along the way

[00:25:58] and again this is what we

[00:25:59] valued in our homes.

[00:26:00] We have to start valuing them

[00:26:02] young because if you start

[00:26:04] coming to your kid with

[00:26:05] well hey God's word is

[00:26:06] important at age 15 but

[00:26:08] you haven't modeled that

[00:26:10] by the way you live your

[00:26:11] life or by how you've been

[00:26:13] in it yourself it's going to

[00:26:14] be hard to convince them

[00:26:15] that they should follow

[00:26:17] this ancient book.

[00:26:19] Yeah so I would say the

[00:26:21] best way to combat culture

[00:26:22] is to have the culture that

[00:26:25] scripture encourages us to

[00:26:27] in the home.

[00:26:28] So and to really know that

[00:26:30] what's happening in your

[00:26:31] home is actually what has

[00:26:32] the greatest impact on your

[00:26:33] kids not the world, not

[00:26:35] their teachers, not their

[00:26:36] friends.

[00:26:37] Actually the study show

[00:26:38] over and over again

[00:26:39] parental what we do which

[00:26:41] is kind of terrifying.

[00:26:43] Yeah.

[00:26:44] What we do in the home is

[00:26:46] the biggest impact on how

[00:26:49] they are going to view

[00:26:50] certain things.

[00:26:51] It does not mean they will

[00:26:52] all come to faith.

[00:26:53] You can do everything right.

[00:26:54] Yeah we know it's the spirit

[00:26:55] only that awakens people's

[00:26:57] hearts but that's

[00:26:59] a little bit of the pressure

[00:27:00] off in that category.

[00:27:01] Yes exactly but you know

[00:27:03] there are things we're

[00:27:04] teaching like hard work

[00:27:05] and doing a job,

[00:27:07] you know knowing how to

[00:27:08] do a chore those are things

[00:27:09] that you know even

[00:27:11] non-christians know how

[00:27:12] to work hard and even

[00:27:13] non-christians can you

[00:27:14] know live in certain

[00:27:15] outwardly moral ways that

[00:27:17] we can be trying to shape

[00:27:18] and mold our kids into

[00:27:20] in prayer that the spirit

[00:27:21] would make their hearts alive

[00:27:23] in a lot of ways.

[00:27:24] But I think we can be really

[00:27:25] fearful of culture.

[00:27:26] I think there's a lot to be

[00:27:28] concerned about but what I

[00:27:30] will say is when the spirit

[00:27:31] opens our eyes they can see

[00:27:34] wow culture is really empty.

[00:27:36] So my kids you know

[00:27:38] I think they grew up

[00:27:39] in Christian school

[00:27:40] but they've both been

[00:27:41] at large secular colleges

[00:27:43] and they just haven't

[00:27:45] been attracted to some

[00:27:46] of the worldly things

[00:27:47] because I think they know

[00:27:48] that hey the fellowship,

[00:27:50] the friendship of true believers

[00:27:51] is way better than this false

[00:27:54] oh I have to be drunk and do

[00:27:56] all these things for you

[00:27:57] to be my friend.

[00:27:58] Yeah I don't think it's been

[00:27:59] very as enticing

[00:28:01] because they've actually

[00:28:02] experienced good fellowship

[00:28:03] with believers throughout

[00:28:04] their lives

[00:28:05] and they've seen the benefit

[00:28:06] of that.

[00:28:07] So I always try to say

[00:28:08] fight the bad by giving

[00:28:09] them the better.

[00:28:10] Yeah I love that.

[00:28:12] Okay two more areas I want

[00:28:14] us to just quickly dive into

[00:28:16] one is navigating technology

[00:28:18] and social media

[00:28:19] which again is one of the battles

[00:28:21] and the other one is

[00:28:23] dealing with doubts

[00:28:25] and so I mean technology is everywhere

[00:28:27] social media is a bounds.

[00:28:30] How do we navigate this

[00:28:32] maybe some practical tips

[00:28:33] setting boundaries that sort of thing

[00:28:35] how did you and Mike do it?

[00:28:37] Yeah I mean the first boundary

[00:28:39] is yourself right like if you're glued

[00:28:41] to your phone okay your kids

[00:28:42] gonna be glued to their phone

[00:28:43] so that's the first one

[00:28:44] you know let's just go ahead and say it.

[00:28:46] And I will say this

[00:28:48] I think it's a lot harder

[00:28:49] for like you raising kids now

[00:28:51] but I had young kids

[00:28:53] I didn't have a smartphone.

[00:28:54] Sure.

[00:28:55] I mean can you imagine the difference

[00:28:56] like I could not at a restaurant

[00:28:58] just take my little cell phone

[00:29:00] and say here watch whatever shows

[00:29:02] popular.

[00:29:03] Yeah I mean and so I'm so thankful

[00:29:05] like so we I mean

[00:29:07] we had to deal with those awful restaurant

[00:29:09] moments when they're losing their minds

[00:29:11] and having a bit.

[00:29:12] That's why we don't go to restaurants.

[00:29:13] Or just not go.

[00:29:14] We can a lot of times

[00:29:16] like fast food because that's where

[00:29:18] you can easily exit.

[00:29:20] And so I think

[00:29:22] to be aware that what you're

[00:29:24] doing with your phone and devices

[00:29:26] in the young years is greatly going to

[00:29:28] impact the older years.

[00:29:29] And then the other thing

[00:29:31] I would just say as the statistics have

[00:29:33] come in and the hopeful thing I have

[00:29:35] for your age I think

[00:29:37] by the time your age those kids

[00:29:39] get to high school I think there will be

[00:29:40] new rules in high schools.

[00:29:42] It's hard right now.

[00:29:44] I view the cell phone and social media

[00:29:46] like smoking.

[00:29:47] The high school that I went to had

[00:29:49] inner courtyards and you were allowed

[00:29:51] to go out and smoke in the middle of the day.

[00:29:53] Not when I was there by the time I was there

[00:29:55] inner courtyard there was no smoking.

[00:29:57] I mean think about it you know airplanes used

[00:29:59] to be able to smoke on them right.

[00:30:00] I know one of those airplanes actually.

[00:30:02] Yeah.

[00:30:03] I was a kid.

[00:30:04] Exactly and now they've realized oh

[00:30:06] these aren't innocent.

[00:30:08] It affects everyone in the plane whether

[00:30:10] you want it or not.

[00:30:11] Exactly.

[00:30:12] And the curtain is not going to keep it back.

[00:30:13] Exactly and there was no more let a bunch

[00:30:15] of kids be sitting in the inner courtyard

[00:30:17] of a high school smoking now.

[00:30:18] Well I believe, I really do believe

[00:30:20] what the studies are showing us how

[00:30:22] bad it is for kids in their

[00:30:24] mental health.

[00:30:25] I believe one day cell phones are not

[00:30:27] going to be allowed in school.

[00:30:28] Hopefully by the time the kids get there

[00:30:30] I think they will not be allowed

[00:30:31] in middle and high school so it might

[00:30:33] help parents but today

[00:30:35] parents have to navigate those waters

[00:30:37] without help from culture.

[00:30:39] Yeah.

[00:30:40] And it's really hard and so but what I

[00:30:42] would say is for every hour your kid

[00:30:44] spends on their cell phone or device

[00:30:46] they will be less happy and you just

[00:30:48] better reckon with that.

[00:30:49] The studies are in.

[00:30:51] Every further hour

[00:30:53] they spend on a device

[00:30:55] they will be that much less happy.

[00:30:57] They will be more lonely, they will be

[00:30:59] more depressed, they will be more anxious.

[00:31:00] And so we've got to deal with that

[00:31:02] reality as we pair it and the most

[00:31:04] loving thing we can do is to help

[00:31:06] kids not be glued to their phones all the time.

[00:31:08] Yeah and I would imagine it fosters

[00:31:10] more of that comparative

[00:31:12] right?

[00:31:13] Yeah.

[00:31:14] I mean my friends pictures on whatever

[00:31:16] social media platform and I'm comparing

[00:31:18] myself at a constant

[00:31:20] rate versus you know

[00:31:22] when I was a kid it was sort of a

[00:31:24] teenager it was like just what you could see in

[00:31:26] front of you.

[00:31:27] Right you didn't know that you were actually

[00:31:29] left out of the party until a week or two

[00:31:31] later.

[00:31:32] Now instantly you're sitting home on a Friday

[00:31:34] and you see the party

[00:31:36] that you weren't invited to.

[00:31:38] Yeah I can only imagine

[00:31:40] navigating that.

[00:31:41] Okay doubt.

[00:31:43] This is a period in

[00:31:45] kids lives where

[00:31:47] doubt is more

[00:31:49] prevalent, more frequent.

[00:31:51] How do we address the question without dismissing

[00:31:53] it but also not

[00:31:55] just want to give the answer straight away?

[00:31:57] Yeah that's right.

[00:31:59] I think so often we hear a question

[00:32:01] and we jump to fear.

[00:32:03] Fear leads to control.

[00:32:05] So rather the kid says

[00:32:07] something like yeah I'm not sure I believe that

[00:32:09] and then we hyper jump on that

[00:32:11] and give them a three point outline of

[00:32:13] why they should believe what we believe.

[00:32:15] Okay that is not a conversation

[00:32:17] and that is not what your team needs.

[00:32:19] So what I would suggest

[00:32:21] when they say yeah I'm not sure

[00:32:23] it seems really you know that view

[00:32:25] of whatever seems really

[00:32:27] mean.

[00:32:29] Okay well tell me why you think

[00:32:31] that. Tell me where you hear that.

[00:32:33] What do your friends think about it?

[00:32:35] Like be curious about them.

[00:32:37] You already know actually

[00:32:39] what you think about whatever

[00:32:41] the thing is.

[00:32:43] But what they need to hear from you

[00:32:45] is that you actually are willing to listen

[00:32:47] as they're trying to sort it out

[00:32:49] and it's going to make sense.

[00:32:51] Kids have really small perspectives

[00:32:53] on things. I did

[00:32:55] when I was that age I had all sorts of bad ideas

[00:32:57] about things. They're working

[00:32:59] through it. So work through

[00:33:01] it with them.

[00:33:03] I just don't think it's very helpful to lecture them

[00:33:05] at that point. I think it's good

[00:33:07] we want to have a conversation

[00:33:09] is what I keep saying.

[00:33:11] A conversation is going to actually allow

[00:33:13] more availability to give your opinion

[00:33:15] when you actually

[00:33:17] are curious about what they are thinking

[00:33:19] rather than just jump in.

[00:33:21] And the reality is

[00:33:23] again me lecturing them

[00:33:25] is not going to probably prove my point

[00:33:27] but as we have conversations

[00:33:29] I'm going to start to understand where they're

[00:33:31] struggling, what they're struggling with

[00:33:33] and we can keep having that conversation

[00:33:35] and it makes them a lot more receptive.

[00:33:37] Yeah I found that helpful

[00:33:39] Mike was saying yesterday

[00:33:41] his tendency was to just give the answer

[00:33:43] straight away. He's got the PhD

[00:33:45] and all the qualifications and credentials

[00:33:47] but kids don't really care.

[00:33:49] It's like alright dad just chill

[00:33:51] and I get your point it's more about

[00:33:53] let them kind of sit in the doubt

[00:33:55] for a little bit. Rather than

[00:33:57] just giving the quick immediate response

[00:33:59] let them wrestle

[00:34:01] with it because this is probably

[00:34:03] the early formations of them

[00:34:05] moving out of the family faith

[00:34:07] and into a personal faith.

[00:34:09] And I think you've hit it on the head there

[00:34:11] with opening the dialogue

[00:34:13] so it can be an ongoing conversation

[00:34:15] so that when they do go off

[00:34:17] to university or whatever it is

[00:34:19] and they're presented with ideas

[00:34:21] and philosophies they can say

[00:34:23] and I kind of talked about that

[00:34:25] and I realized here all the

[00:34:27] fallacies or issues that come up

[00:34:29] with that I think that's really helpful

[00:34:31] but you're right I mean I think we do

[00:34:33] we tend to go to fear and

[00:34:35] we start thinking down the track

[00:34:37] what could happen if I don't resolve this immediately.

[00:34:39] And to realize that conversation

[00:34:41] continues it doesn't

[00:34:43] all of our kids have called us

[00:34:45] they normally call Mike

[00:34:47] and they'll FaceTime

[00:34:49] Emma has been on the FaceTime with like

[00:34:51] we have a Bible question for you dad

[00:34:53] and I think because it felt

[00:34:55] like a conversation they actually

[00:34:57] continued the conversation

[00:34:59] and I'll also say this

[00:35:01] it's okay to not know because I get it

[00:35:03] like look it's really convenient

[00:35:05] when you have a husband who is

[00:35:07] like a New Testament scholar

[00:35:09] and can actually answer some of these questions

[00:35:11] We all just need Mike's phone number

[00:35:13] Exactly but I will say this

[00:35:15] there are plenty of times

[00:35:17] he's like that's a really confusing

[00:35:19] passage I'm not sure what that means

[00:35:21] I mean they are wildly unimpressed

[00:35:23] with his knowledge base sometimes

[00:35:25] and so it's always nicely humbling

[00:35:27] but he's very comfortable

[00:35:29] saying I don't know

[00:35:31] and I think we all should be comfortable

[00:35:33] saying I don't know and saying hey let's find out together

[00:35:35] look there are pastors out there

[00:35:37] who are waiting for calls like this

[00:35:39] you know I mean they have to deal with

[00:35:41] really hard issues sometimes but

[00:35:43] they went to school to answer

[00:35:45] your biblical questions and so

[00:35:47] a lot of times pastors are really eager

[00:35:49] to say oh I can help you with that

[00:35:51] you know

[00:35:53] I get those from time to time and sometimes

[00:35:55] there are the ones where especially from little ones

[00:35:57] and I think how do I

[00:35:59] take what I know and put it in a way

[00:36:01] that you'll understand it that takes some work

[00:36:03] That's the best theological classroom

[00:36:05] you can ever be in right there

[00:36:07] Exactly so we've

[00:36:09] asked some parents of teens

[00:36:11] to submit some questions

[00:36:13] that they're wrestling with

[00:36:15] so we'll do a little lightning round

[00:36:17] of questions here

[00:36:19] this ties us back to what we mentioned

[00:36:21] earlier this is kind of a newer

[00:36:23] thing I mean it's always been around

[00:36:25] but it's more prevalent

[00:36:27] probably post COVID

[00:36:29] post invention of the iPhone

[00:36:31] where

[00:36:33] kids are isolated

[00:36:35] they're less relational than

[00:36:37] like you and I would have been

[00:36:39] because that was it that's all we had

[00:36:41] was relational collateral personal interaction

[00:36:43] now kids can interact

[00:36:45] digitally and

[00:36:47] immediately and so

[00:36:49] there's probably a heightened level

[00:36:51] of self-consciousness and that includes

[00:36:53] just appearances through

[00:36:55] social media and that sort of thing

[00:36:57] so now going into a new setting with real

[00:36:59] people and real interactions

[00:37:01] must be a challenge so what do you

[00:37:03] what sort of some advice for the parent

[00:37:05] who's struggling with a teenager who's going through that

[00:37:07] I mean the first thing I always say

[00:37:09] is it's good to offer sympathy to them

[00:37:11] that hey this is hard I mean I can remember

[00:37:13] what it was like to go in the lunch room

[00:37:15] you know and it'd be super awkward like who

[00:37:17] am I going to sit with all have that

[00:37:19] I mean I still have that feeling sometimes

[00:37:21] I'm in situations

[00:37:23] many times where I'm the only woman in a

[00:37:25] scenario and I'm like hmm

[00:37:27] which table am I going to of all men

[00:37:29] am I going to sit at and it feels awkward

[00:37:31] and so sometimes just them knowing

[00:37:33] that you feel it too is helpful but

[00:37:35] I think it's also helpful to equip them

[00:37:37] and to say hey when you're in a situation

[00:37:39] like that other people are probably feeling

[00:37:41] nervous too and so it's good to go

[00:37:43] in with three questions so that you have

[00:37:45] them on your mind when you're walking

[00:37:47] into an awkward situation it could be

[00:37:49] like a question like hey you know

[00:37:51] let's picture the school lunch room what's

[00:37:53] your next class after this okay that

[00:37:55] anybody can answer you know it's pretty

[00:37:57] easily yeah whatever oh

[00:37:59] or a second one you know

[00:38:01] hey where do you live or

[00:38:03] you know something like that I mean these are things I think

[00:38:05] in business context where are you from

[00:38:07] and yeah but just some

[00:38:09] easily accessible questions

[00:38:11] that kids can answer it could be

[00:38:13] are you going to the game this weekend

[00:38:15] I mean whatever it might be

[00:38:17] so then they feel equipped to actually reach out

[00:38:19] to someone else with a

[00:38:21] question and that can help

[00:38:23] conversation start

[00:38:25] this one sort of on a similar vein

[00:38:27] but on a different level so

[00:38:29] how do our teens manage

[00:38:31] the social rejection

[00:38:33] when you are following Christ

[00:38:35] I think it is really

[00:38:37] helpful to put before

[00:38:39] kids that we are strangers and aliens

[00:38:41] in this world and yeah my kids

[00:38:43] go to a they were blessed to go

[00:38:45] to a Christian school so they

[00:38:47] did not have to feel it at the level

[00:38:49] certain kids are going to have but

[00:38:51] they did still get teased

[00:38:53] all again especially my youngest

[00:38:55] for being oh

[00:38:57] you're the professor's daughter so

[00:38:59] she's in bible class even the teacher looks to her

[00:39:01] well would your dad agree with this

[00:39:03] oh dear I had a little bit of that too

[00:39:05] with my father being a pastor

[00:39:07] what would your dad say

[00:39:09] it's the awkward

[00:39:11] so you have to be the super spiritual one

[00:39:13] in every instance

[00:39:15] and we just talk some

[00:39:17] about feeling

[00:39:19] a little bit like you don't belong

[00:39:21] is actually a good sign

[00:39:23] and that means we are not home yet

[00:39:25] great reminder

[00:39:27] yeah when we talk that home is heaven

[00:39:29] it makes sense

[00:39:33] how do you parent a child

[00:39:35] that doesn't realize their friends are

[00:39:37] unhealthy for them

[00:39:39] these

[00:39:41] might all have a little bit of a sigh

[00:39:43] yeah it's tough and I

[00:39:45] I'm a big believer in question asking

[00:39:47] rather than telling

[00:39:49] so hey

[00:39:51] you know it seems like John

[00:39:53] did this and this and this like

[00:39:55] what do you think a good friend would be

[00:39:57] like you know in this scenario

[00:39:59] what would you want him to do

[00:40:01] in that scenario

[00:40:03] and then sometimes they can start to uncover

[00:40:05] hey this isn't the best

[00:40:07] type of person

[00:40:09] but it is always good to maybe pause

[00:40:11] and ask why are they turning to this kind of friendship

[00:40:13] and I mean yeah again

[00:40:15] praying that the spirit would wake in their hearts

[00:40:17] to see the destructiveness

[00:40:19] I mean always be praying

[00:40:21] in every one of these scenarios let me just say

[00:40:23] it starts with prayer

[00:40:25] it starts with prayer

[00:40:27] I'm with you

[00:40:29] one of your chapters in your book

[00:40:31] how do you prevent sports

[00:40:33] from becoming an idol especially

[00:40:35] in regards to travel

[00:40:37] yeah it's tough

[00:40:39] I would manage it very carefully

[00:40:41] and just remember

[00:40:43] as good as your kid is

[00:40:45] they probably will not play in college

[00:40:47] and even more unlikely are they to create

[00:40:49] a career out of this but you do want

[00:40:51] them to create a career and a life

[00:40:53] out of being a church member

[00:40:55] so just guard your church time

[00:40:57] it doesn't mean you never miss

[00:40:59] we've all missed church for various reasons

[00:41:01] whether it's travel or just vacation

[00:41:03] you couldn't get to church for some reason

[00:41:05] but I would also even say if you're traveling

[00:41:07] it's a great opportunity

[00:41:09] to take your kid to other churches

[00:41:11] my kid's really benefited from

[00:41:13] seeing other church traditions

[00:41:15] when we traveled

[00:41:17] so it was great for them

[00:41:19] one Sunday we went to a Baptist church

[00:41:21] and they had grown up Presbyterian

[00:41:23] so they only saw babies get baptized

[00:41:25] during breaks we were traveling

[00:41:27] they had this full immersion baptism

[00:41:29] well my kids were on the edge of their seats

[00:41:31] and they were like what is happening here

[00:41:33] you know and so for them it was great

[00:41:35] it was a great conversation

[00:41:37] to say oh this is how they do it

[00:41:39] those are great conversations to have

[00:41:41] yeah

[00:41:43] courtship dance

[00:41:45] how to handle it now

[00:41:47] there's not a lot of scripture on dating

[00:41:49] how have y'all navigated that

[00:41:51] with your kids

[00:41:53] and you know they've had a very little experience

[00:41:55] in this not because we have had rules

[00:41:57] not because of any other reason

[00:41:59] that our kids just have not dated

[00:42:01] I think the benefit of maybe going to a small school

[00:42:03] is they felt like we've met these people since they were like

[00:42:05] fine I'm not gonna date them

[00:42:07] my daughter is getting ready to get married

[00:42:09] and she is marrying a guy

[00:42:11] she knew all through college

[00:42:13] they met at Chapel Hill

[00:42:15] and were friends for three years

[00:42:17] and their senior year started dating

[00:42:19] I mean it was just as easy

[00:42:21] as it could have been

[00:42:23] and he is delightful and we're so glad they're getting married

[00:42:25] so what I would say

[00:42:27] with my lack of experience

[00:42:29] is I do believe that

[00:42:31] rather than have rules it's better to have conversations

[00:42:33] in this area

[00:42:35] and so when your kid comes home to you at 15

[00:42:37] and says I really like this kid

[00:42:39] one be glad they're willing to talk to you about it

[00:42:41] secondly say what do you like about them

[00:42:43] tell me what's great about them

[00:42:45] be curious

[00:42:47] rather than controlling

[00:42:49] be curious about your kid

[00:42:51] rather than control them

[00:42:53] so I would just say

[00:42:55] it's good to have standards

[00:42:57] when you're talking about sexuality standards

[00:42:59] you need to have those conversations whether they're dating or not

[00:43:01] so that should be happening well before they're dating

[00:43:03] I think that needs to be happening

[00:43:05] way before the teen years

[00:43:07] so I'm just assuming that

[00:43:09] in these conversations that those have happened

[00:43:11] beforehand

[00:43:13] but then I think modeling good friendships

[00:43:15] if your kids are having good friendships

[00:43:17] and developing good friendships

[00:43:19] it's a big precursor to developing

[00:43:21] a good and strong marriage

[00:43:23] and good and strong dating

[00:43:25] I think the main thing you want to do is keep the conversation open

[00:43:27] hold your tongue

[00:43:29] and listen

[00:43:31] yeah

[00:43:33] keeping a distraction free family

[00:43:37] that's an interesting question

[00:43:39] no cell phones at the table kind of thing

[00:43:41] yeah it's just funny

[00:43:43] we just didn't have some of those rules

[00:43:45] I guess it was just understood

[00:43:47] that that's what we were doing

[00:43:49] and I would say a big thing

[00:43:51] I would probably highlight

[00:43:53] is if you're going to watch a movie

[00:43:55] all watch the same movie

[00:43:57] and so yeah that means you're going to watch

[00:43:59] a lot of movies you don't really want to watch

[00:44:01] as a parent

[00:44:03] but I'd rather have all five of us in the den together

[00:44:05] watching a movie that maybe

[00:44:07] everyone had to compromise on

[00:44:09] that's okay

[00:44:11] then all of us in separate rooms

[00:44:13] we want to watch

[00:44:15] and I know Mike's favorite movies are horror films

[00:44:17] yeah no he has to watch this alone

[00:44:19] he's not up to it

[00:44:21] I was going to say

[00:44:23] how do you balance

[00:44:25] contentment

[00:44:27] and complacency

[00:44:29] and still encourage hard work

[00:44:31] I think contentment

[00:44:33] is goes right alongside with hard work

[00:44:35] but complacency

[00:44:37] is a little different so I think

[00:44:39] you know your child

[00:44:41] you're going to need to be told

[00:44:43] hey you need to slow down

[00:44:45] some kids are going to be told you need to speed up

[00:44:47] and that's okay to do both

[00:44:49] but you're going to have to know your individual child

[00:44:51] to know if they're not living up to who

[00:44:53] God's made them to be

[00:44:55] or if they're trying to prove

[00:44:57] something to the world

[00:44:59] you're going to have to know that better as a parent

[00:45:01] so it's probably going to be different for every kid

[00:45:03] how do you parent the high achieving

[00:45:05] focused child

[00:45:07] how to best support their talents

[00:45:09] yeah I think with the high achieving

[00:45:11] focused child

[00:45:13] it's really good to make sure

[00:45:15] they're not putting their worth and value

[00:45:17] in their performance

[00:45:19] you're going to have to just

[00:45:21] work with them on that and walk through that

[00:45:23] with them

[00:45:25] encourage them that they are beloved

[00:45:27] not because of what they do but because of

[00:45:29] who they are in that

[00:45:31] because they're going to fail one day

[00:45:33] and then how you deal with their failure

[00:45:35] their mistakes is going to be really important

[00:45:37] they really need it

[00:45:39] they need to feel like what it feels like to fail

[00:45:41] sometime and they're going to be

[00:45:43] really uncomfortable in that moment

[00:45:45] and so walking through that with them

[00:45:47] graciously is really important

[00:45:49] and the flip side I suppose is how do you

[00:45:51] parent the low achieving

[00:45:53] unfocused child

[00:45:55] yeah I think

[00:45:57] and that's a really hard one

[00:45:59] I have to admit

[00:46:01] it's totally different

[00:46:03] especially if it's a child you're like

[00:46:05] one if it is a boy let me just say

[00:46:07] they really

[00:46:09] will get it together eventually

[00:46:11] a lot of boys

[00:46:13] their frontal lobe there's a great book

[00:46:15] called the Teenage Brain

[00:46:17] you should read it it's written by Nero Science who had two boys

[00:46:19] it's great

[00:46:21] their brains really are taking long to develop

[00:46:23] I taught high school and let me tell you

[00:46:25] the boys were not winning in high school

[00:46:27] they forgot their stuff

[00:46:29] the reason they had B's rather than A's

[00:46:31] was not because they were not smart enough

[00:46:33] to get it together in their homework

[00:46:35] they really will by their junior and senior year

[00:46:37] developmentally get it together

[00:46:39] the girls are just developing earlier

[00:46:41] some of the frontal lobe stuff is connecting

[00:46:43] earlier it's biological

[00:46:45] so yes have

[00:46:47] expectations but just know that with your son

[00:46:49] you might have to remind him

[00:46:51] five times hey did you

[00:46:53] pack your lunch today? yeah hey did you pack

[00:46:55] your lunch don't pack it for him

[00:46:57] but just you might have to remind him more

[00:46:59] on those things

[00:47:01] do you experience rejection or seek

[00:47:03] acceptance from the wrong sources

[00:47:05] how do we navigate that?

[00:47:07] yeah I mean I think definitely

[00:47:09] again this one is just going to have to be prayer

[00:47:11] because they're yeah I mean it shows

[00:47:13] a little bit about where their heart is leaning

[00:47:15] I mean you can see this in some kids

[00:47:17] some kids just always want to be on the edge

[00:47:19] you can see it

[00:47:21] and I think this is where you pray

[00:47:23] and you do trust that the Lord will somehow use

[00:47:25] this season in their life

[00:47:27] but also I think to ask

[00:47:29] questions like hey why do you want to do that

[00:47:31] what's going on? why is

[00:47:33] that attractive?

[00:47:35] and it is difficult if you are not that

[00:47:37] type of personality to even understand

[00:47:39] like I don't want to get burned

[00:47:41] so I say way far away

[00:47:43] from the fire right but some people

[00:47:45] are just drawn to the fire and they just

[00:47:47] want to get close up to it

[00:47:49] so sometimes it's good

[00:47:51] just to ask hey why

[00:47:53] why do you want this what's going on again

[00:47:55] I think with each kid it's going to be a little

[00:47:57] bit different so it's important

[00:47:59] to ask what's going on

[00:48:01] with their hearts and to

[00:48:03] keep probing and keep

[00:48:05] praying

[00:48:07] yeah alright I'll make this the last one

[00:48:09] what does the Kruger's take

[00:48:11] on how much we are requiring church

[00:48:13] attendance, devotions, spiritual

[00:48:15] practice versus giving

[00:48:17] teens the freedom of choice

[00:48:19] hmm that's interesting

[00:48:21] so you're saying like

[00:48:23] how much we require it

[00:48:25] versus how much we just let

[00:48:27] them make that choice

[00:48:29] yeah in terms of

[00:48:31] family devotion

[00:48:33] yeah yeah yeah

[00:48:35] that's a good question

[00:48:37] that makes sense

[00:48:39] so I'm totally fine with like

[00:48:41] you're going to go to church on Sunday

[00:48:43] just because I don't make school a choice

[00:48:45] if you can go to school all day

[00:48:47] you can go to church so that's just fine

[00:48:49] with me, if they don't believe

[00:48:51] I'm like that's fine you don't have to believe

[00:48:53] you're going to go to school and I'm okay with that

[00:48:55] when it comes to family devotions

[00:48:57] that was again, that was just something we had

[00:48:59] always done so it was never

[00:49:01] a new thing it'd be like my kids saying

[00:49:03] all of a sudden I don't want to brush my teeth

[00:49:05] huh really you brushed your teeth since you

[00:49:07] were two you want to stop now

[00:49:09] so some of these habits when you can start

[00:49:11] them young they just don't know

[00:49:13] any different my big hint to young parents

[00:49:15] is they only know the home you make normal for them

[00:49:17] and so they don't

[00:49:19] know that no other families have family devotions

[00:49:21] when it comes to personal Bible

[00:49:23] reading that was something I did not force

[00:49:25] at all we gave our kids Bibles

[00:49:27] they saw our habits in our practice

[00:49:29] and I watched as

[00:49:31] each of my kids became interested in the Bible

[00:49:33] on their own we did not

[00:49:35] say hey you need to read it every day

[00:49:37] when you're putting them in church and you're

[00:49:39] having devotions you know you're showing

[00:49:41] them what you value and at some

[00:49:43] level they've got to start picking up

[00:49:45] on those personal habits

[00:49:47] that's not much more like the very relational

[00:49:49] intimate

[00:49:51] yet walking with the Lord

[00:49:53] and I wasn't going to try to force that on them

[00:49:55] so there are spaces I think where you say

[00:49:57] hey this is what we do as a family

[00:49:59] like go to church or have a prayer

[00:50:01] time before breakfast

[00:50:03] that's just our family rhythm

[00:50:05] and yes you need to participate

[00:50:07] but when it came to their own faith and their own growth

[00:50:09] by the teen years I think that's

[00:50:11] starting to be put in their hands

[00:50:13] alright before we go

[00:50:15] encouragement for parents who are feeling

[00:50:17] overwhelmed

[00:50:19] discouraged

[00:50:21] every parent

[00:50:23] exactly if you're feeling overwhelmed this is where I always

[00:50:25] go back to the basics

[00:50:27] read the Bible be encouraged

[00:50:29] God is with you and he's parenting

[00:50:31] you while you're parenting your teen

[00:50:33] be in prayer ask for his help

[00:50:35] and be around the people in the church

[00:50:37] and so again that

[00:50:39] makes life a lot more simple right

[00:50:41] I mean read your Bible

[00:50:43] it will change you it will change how

[00:50:45] you parent

[00:50:47] prayer will give you hope that God can change your child

[00:50:49] and the church will give

[00:50:51] you the community you need and then

[00:50:53] say no to a lot of other things but simplify

[00:50:55] your life so that those things can be a priority

[00:50:57] well the book is parenting

[00:50:59] with hope raising teens

[00:51:01] for Christ in a secular age

[00:51:03] Melissa Kruger it's always

[00:51:05] so fun and you've

[00:51:07] knocked out the lightning round questions

[00:51:09] and

[00:51:11] I just want to say thank you so much for taking

[00:51:13] the time to be on candid conversations

[00:51:15] well thanks for having me it was fun

[00:51:17] pleasure

[00:51:19] candid is a podcast from leading the way

[00:51:21] with Dr. Michael Youssef don't forget

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