[00:00:00] This is like the hardest sentence we wrote in the book, but here's where we landed on
[00:00:05] our definition of deconstruction. It's a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring
[00:00:12] Scripture as a standard.
[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Candid where we never settle for less than the truth. I'm your
[00:00:24] host Jonathan Youssef. Each week we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions and
[00:00:30] take a candid look at the Christian faith.
[00:00:34] Well today we have quite a special situation. We have two of my favorite guests that we've had in the past,
[00:00:41] Lisa Childers and Tim Barnett. And they have teamed up and have written a book together,
[00:00:49] The Deconstruction of Christianity, what it is, why it's destructive and how to respond.
[00:00:56] Thank you guys so much for taking the time. We're all across the nation and different nations here.
[00:01:01] Thank y'all for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[00:01:04] It's great to be back with you.
[00:01:06] Yeah, it's good to see you.
[00:01:08] Well I think before we jump in, Lisa and I and Tim and I, we've separately had conversations around this area
[00:01:14] but I love the way you break down your book into these three parts.
[00:01:18] Exvangelical, Deconstruction and Hope. But just again for those who are new to the terminology,
[00:01:26] let's define deconstruction and separate it and define exvangelical and then we'll talk about the reasons for
[00:01:34] the writing of the book.
[00:01:36] Which one do you want to take Tim? Exvangelical or deconstruction?
[00:01:39] You each get one.
[00:01:41] Alright, I'll start with deconstruction. You know this has been a tough definition to nail down.
[00:01:47] In fact this took quite some research and quite some time.
[00:01:51] In fact I actually changed my mind on how I was using the term at least initially when I started teaching on deconstruction
[00:01:59] a few years ago. I thought there was a way that we could use the word deconstruction in a healthy way
[00:02:05] and there was a way we could use it in an unhealthy way.
[00:02:08] We're seeing these kind of things happening especially on social media.
[00:02:12] You'd have people like Lecrae or John Mark Comer or other notable evangelicals using deconstruction as a healthy way.
[00:02:20] Here's a good way to do deconstruction, that's right.
[00:02:23] And then on the other hand there's a whole lot of this other stuff that's very unhealthy
[00:02:28] and that's how we originally were thinking until we did serious research into what's going on in this deconstruction space.
[00:02:37] Especially on social media where we're seeing a movement or an explosion.
[00:02:43] And what we saw there was that there isn't anything healthy.
[00:02:47] In fact there are defining characteristics of the deconstruction explosion that are unbiblical and just completely wrong headed.
[00:02:58] And so at the end of the day where we landed on this, and again we say this is like the hardest sentence we wrote in the book
[00:03:05] but here's where we landed on our definition of deconstruction.
[00:03:08] It's a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring Scripture as a standard.
[00:03:15] And all those words are important in that sentence.
[00:03:18] So it's a process but it's a very specific kind of process.
[00:03:22] It's a postmodern process.
[00:03:24] Whereas where you would think, at least this is what many claim, is that they're on a search for truth
[00:03:30] but what we're finding is that it's not really about truth.
[00:03:33] In fact by postmodern we mean that there isn't a goal of truth, there is actually a denial of objective truth.
[00:03:41] Objective truth cannot be known.
[00:03:43] And so there's that on the one hand and on the other hand you have this rejection of Scripture as an authority.
[00:03:51] And so when we put those two things together we think these are like the defining characteristics of what deconstruction is all about.
[00:03:59] And we can kind of go into more detail and give some examples of where we've seen that but that's kind of a starting point.
[00:04:05] Right, and then the exvangelical hashtag is often used synonymously with in at least in conjunction with that deconstruction hashtag.
[00:04:14] And it's a little bit of a tricky hashtag because it doesn't simply mean at face value no longer evangelical.
[00:04:21] Right, it's not like you have people who were raised Presbyterian and they become some kind of more liturgical Anglican or something.
[00:04:31] They're not using the exvangelical hashtag for that.
[00:04:33] What we're seeing with the exvangelical hashtag is that first of all it's very difficult to define what evangelical is.
[00:04:40] That's kind of a word like deconstruction that's defined in 100 different ways.
[00:04:43] So there's the Bebbington's quadrilateral that characterizes the evangelical movement under four pillars of personal conversion,
[00:04:49] emphasis on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, on the cross, biblical authority and evangelism.
[00:04:55] And yet if you ask people in the deconstruction hashtag what is evangelical those beliefs are in the background for sure.
[00:05:03] But what they primarily see is like God guns in Trump.
[00:05:07] It's like this what is perceived in their minds to be this unholy alliance between evangelicals and the political right.
[00:05:15] And so it's all kind of mashed together along with things like spiritual abuse and purity culture and conservative politics.
[00:05:23] It's all kind of this ball that all gets kind of mixed together and then it all gets thrown out as exvangelical.
[00:05:29] And so in some cases they're conflating evangelical with the historic Christian gospel.
[00:05:36] And then in other cases they might actually be throwing out some cultural things that are Americanized that aren't necessarily a part of the gospel.
[00:05:43] And it can be kind of like a mix of both.
[00:05:46] But it's important like when Tim talked about the shift of authority, it's like the only thing that matters for the exvangelical and deconstruction is that they're leaving behind what they perceive to be toxic beliefs.
[00:05:57] So as best I can analyze what those are it's any belief outside of yourself that you would be asked to submit to surrender to Neil to that is not necessarily something that resonates with you inside.
[00:06:09] Interesting.
[00:06:10] So you're the ultimate authority which goes to the deconstruction definition of scripture being the authority.
[00:06:16] I do think it boils down to that yes.
[00:06:18] Do you find this as a uniquely American phenomenon?
[00:06:23] I don't even know if phenomenon is the right word is there.
[00:06:26] That's a really good question.
[00:06:28] I think that there's a few reasons why we're seeing this in particular in North America it's happening in Canada to not just the US.
[00:06:35] I think that we're seeing the culture that's dominated by a philosophy of relativism on the one hand and then on the other you have this kind of explosion of social media within the last decade or so.
[00:06:49] And then maybe a third thing and that is the American church.
[00:06:54] And how we have I think neglected the life of the Christian mind.
[00:06:58] We used to say the church teaches what we believe really well but not why we believe it and so as an apologist you know we're trying to train up the church in why we believe these things but to be honest when you look at the research now that's coming out in the last couple of years people who identify as evangelical.
[00:07:19] I think it was in our book we say 42 or 43% of Americans who identify as evangelical do not believe that Jesus is God.
[00:07:29] They think he's just a good moral teacher.
[00:07:32] Hold on a second so these people identify as evangelical but they're not Christian.
[00:07:38] I mean this is crazy.
[00:07:40] So you have on the one hand Christians people who are professing to be Christians because I was born in America or born in Canada that's the default right and it's like in your genetics or something.
[00:07:51] Yeah so you have that on the one hand.
[00:07:54] So there's no real understanding or foundation for what real Orthodox Christianity is then you have this dominant culture.
[00:08:04] I mean it's coming from every direction this idea of relativism.
[00:08:08] It's literally the water that many of our young people especially are swimming in and they don't even know they're wet.
[00:08:15] And then of course you have social media this platform now where I have access to I mean the world.
[00:08:22] I have access to memes and TikToks and these for many they think these are compelling arguments.
[00:08:28] I can't tell you how many times I'm sitting here at my desk and I get a message coming in it's a meme or a TikTok video that someone sends me and says hey can you respond to this.
[00:08:38] I don't know what to say.
[00:08:39] I don't know how to respond.
[00:08:40] Right.
[00:08:41] I watch the video where I read the meme and I think really.
[00:08:45] This is not a good argument.
[00:08:47] It's not even close to being it.
[00:08:49] Usually it's not even an argument.
[00:08:51] Right.
[00:08:52] And so when you bring all those things together I think that makes America susceptible to the deconstruction movement for sure.
[00:08:59] Well there's also the Trump element in the American version of deconstruction.
[00:09:03] It's just such a huge part of that that is so uniquely American.
[00:09:06] But like Tim said I think deconstruction is happening everywhere.
[00:09:09] I know progressive Christianity is happening even in the Middle East.
[00:09:12] I've gotten emails of people wanting my book to be translated into Farsi because it's even coming into the Middle East.
[00:09:18] So where there's progressive Christianity there's deconstruction.
[00:09:21] But I suppose it's just taking on maybe a different type of flavor here in America.
[00:09:25] Well and even the Trump effect has ripple effects around the world to where people in foreign nations see Trump and think oh well he's their definition of Christian.
[00:09:35] Let's talk about the prevalence because I think there are some who think this is just happening out in large cities or this is not affecting everyday people.
[00:09:46] There can be a disconnect to just how much influence this is having.
[00:09:51] And it could be people who are watching and consuming these things that aren't even talking about it with their family because they know how their family will react when there's genuine questions in doubt.
[00:10:01] So tell us a little bit about what you're seeing with the prevalence of both of these concepts entering into homes.
[00:10:07] Well I think we're in a different world now so this is an interesting anecdotal piece to this.
[00:10:12] When I go out and speak I'll often ask an audience how many of you have heard the word deconstruction in the context of faith.
[00:10:20] And the older the audience the fewer people have even heard of it.
[00:10:25] And yet when I go speak to students it's 90% but it blows my mind even at women's conferences where the ages are 20 to maybe 60 70 and you might have 20% raise their hand that they've even heard of the concept.
[00:10:39] And so what I mean by we're in a different world is decades ago you had to get a book deal.
[00:10:45] There was major exposure with ideas.
[00:10:48] And so I think there are some of us who are still living in that world and don't realize the prevalence of some of these ideas on social media.
[00:10:55] For example we have many posts documented in our book where it's somebody that nobody's ever heard of and probably never will know their name.
[00:11:03] But their video has millions of views hundreds of thousands of likes.
[00:11:08] And if you think about the reach of that versus somebody that you might have seen on TV decades ago or maybe in the Christian bookstore even or in the catalog that they would send out.
[00:11:18] That's a lot of people but social media can reach so many people with a message where it's not even necessarily surrounding a particular personality.
[00:11:27] And so I think the prevalence of it is on social media so someone's exposure to it is probably going to be directly related what types of social media they have and how often they're engaging with it.
[00:11:37] And the other element to this the older folks who have exposure to it is because they have a loved one usually a younger loved one who's going through it.
[00:11:47] And now we're just as we label it this is what it is deconstruction they say it clicks.
[00:11:53] Oh that's what happening my nephew is going through or my grandchild or my son or my daughter or whatever.
[00:11:58] So it does kind of filter up to that older generation they're just they're seeing the aftermath usually.
[00:12:05] It's like you know why is my grandson no longer following the Lord.
[00:12:09] Well it turns out they went through a process called deconstruction.
[00:12:13] Well I imagine some of the reactions can be unhelpful and that's why again I think it's important that books like yours are out there and podcasts and stuff that you guys are producing is out there so that there's a heightened awareness but also a helpful response.
[00:12:30] Right because we do have a response and a calling but we need to make sure we're doing it in a right and biblical way.
[00:12:37] I wonder if we could come to the origins of this.
[00:12:40] I know Carl Lawson writes in the forward in your book about technically the beginning is when Demis who fell in love with the world abandoned Paul and the ministry and the faith.
[00:12:52] But I mean in this particular area with is it with social media.
[00:12:56] Was there a particular person or is it just postmodernism in general.
[00:13:00] Where do you find your origins to these movements.
[00:13:04] Well it's true that we could trace this thing past Demis we go all the way back to the Garden of Eden.
[00:13:09] Okay always and so but just more recently in the 1960s we see postmodern philosophers like Derrida in particular who's the father of deconstruction.
[00:13:21] Now of course he was his application of deconstruction was to text.
[00:13:26] He argued that you know objective meaning objective truth could not be known and that there was no actual truth so that the reader could import just as much meaning as an author of a text.
[00:13:39] And what we traced in our research was we saw you know what there is a connection here in fact we discovered a book by John Caputo who's a scholar and actually a writer.
[00:13:50] He actually follows Derrida and applies Derrida's philosophy to not just text but religion in general in fact to Christianity.
[00:13:59] And he wants to do this postmodern move even on the words of Jesus and so he gives application in his book what would Jesus think about say homosexuality today.
[00:14:10] Well he would look around the world and see loving monogamous relationships and he would be affirming even though Derrida says.
[00:14:19] Yeah in the first century no Paul and Jesus they had a certain view on this but we're going to bring new meaning to the text in fact the way Derrida describes this is Derrida says that the text actually never arrives at a meaning in fact he has this analogy of a postman delivering a letter.
[00:14:39] And it's like the letter never arrives at its destination and in that sense Christianity has not arrived there is no set fundamental beliefs that you need to hold to in fact they're always changing.
[00:14:54] So this is kind of the history and there's of course there's lots of people who don't know who Derrida is they don't know who John Caputo is and yet they're taking a page out of his playbook.
[00:15:05] They're thinking in terms of that kind of postmodern philosophy as they look out at religion it's not what is actually true corresponds to reality instead it's there's something else going on.
[00:15:19] Oftentimes it's personal preferences of the authority or maybe they're looking at the culture and saying yeah look at the culture is more accepting of sexuality and so we ought to be too.
[00:15:32] Just like in the days of Noah.
[00:15:34] Help us understand who were some of the primary voices behind this today.
[00:15:38] I know we talked about how when you're on social media it can be a lot of nameless faceless people who just have an opinion and they want to create an argument or a non-argument that has an effect on people with their emotions.
[00:15:51] Are there any that are writing or have some influence as you know even by way of warning people hey be careful of someone so because they're it tends towards this trajectory or.
[00:16:03] Well I would say there there's in my mind and Tim might have some others but in my mind there's one figure in particular that is in my view the most influential although he's not primarily promoting quote unquote deconstruction.
[00:16:16] Yeah is Richard Rohr.
[00:16:18] Yeah Richard Rohr his ideas his universal Christ worldview is you know interestingly when I was researching the coaching and therapy sites I found all the ones I could find online of people offering services to coach you through a deconstruction or even offer you therapy through your deconstruction.
[00:16:34] And by the way these therapy and coaching sites are not trying to help you remain a Christian they're not interested in where you land they just want to help you along your subjective journey.
[00:16:42] But even the ones that aren't claiming to be Christians there's always this recommendation you go to the but I looked at there all the book recommendations and there's a Richard Rohr book there every single time even among the ones that don't claim to be Christians.
[00:16:55] And so what Rohr has done I think especially among people who want to retain the title Christian but might be more you know spiritual but not religious or some sort of a new agey kind of you know Jesus is more of a mascot kind of thing.
[00:17:08] Rohr has really given them a worldview to put in place of what they've torn down and he does talk about deconstruction in his book universal Christ.
[00:17:16] And he says it's like the process of order disorder and then reorder well that sounds good at face value you know you you taught a certain thing and then something messes it up when as an adult you got to do some digging and some work and then you reorder.
[00:17:29] But that's not exactly what he's talking about his order stage is what he calls private salvation your private salvation project.
[00:17:36] In other words Rohr it doesn't believe in personal salvation he believes in universal salvation he's universalist.
[00:17:41] So he's he's saying that's like the kindergarten version of faith this this kind of Christianity where you have personal faith and you have this God of wrath and judgment all of that just needs to be disordered so that ultimately you can reorder according to his worldview.
[00:17:55] Now I bring up Rohr because he's so influential I mean he makes his way into so many of the deconstruction conversations but beyond Rohr it's tough because there can be platforms that swell up and get really big.
[00:18:06] And then I've seen them shut down at you know after they have maybe 20 30 thousand followers even up to hundreds of thousands of followers I've seen several of these platforms just get kind of burned out and they shut down.
[00:18:17] So it's hard to say but I would say Derek Webb Cademan's call is an important voice in there you've got well John Steingard was for a while when he he shut ended up shutting down his YouTube but he was the lead singer of Hock Nelson he was commenting for quite a while.
[00:18:31] Joe Lumen is is pretty influential. Who else Tim well I put them in different categories.
[00:18:37] There's the people who that's the naked pastor for sure.
[00:18:40] So there's guys who and gals who have deconstructed and have posted that they have deconstructed online.
[00:18:48] So that would be someone like a rep McLaughlin who you know three million people watched his video four years ago he's been keeping people updated every year they do kind of an anniversary thing.
[00:19:00] That sparks so many people on their own deconstruction.
[00:19:04] Now what's interesting about Red is he didn't necessarily tell you how to do it.
[00:19:07] He was just saying here I've deconstructed my yeah and that was enough for some people to say maybe I should do this too.
[00:19:16] Now there's other platforms out there and all they do is criticize Christianity or they mock Christianity.
[00:19:23] Those are big on TikTok.
[00:19:25] I mean there are massive platforms that are have half a million followers and millions of views.
[00:19:31] Okay. And I could go down and list some of those for you.
[00:19:33] But the point is they're not necessarily talking about deconstruction in the process but they're just saying hey here's what you guys believe about hell.
[00:19:42] Here's my mocking. Here's my criticism.
[00:19:45] Then there's these other stream and this is the naked pastor Joe Lumen and others who aren't just mocking Christianity or criticizing Christianity but they're trying to advocate for a certain kind of process.
[00:19:58] Yeah.
[00:19:59] Okay. And that's where you're going to get a little more detail on how this deconstruction thing works out.
[00:20:05] And so they've been like Joe Lumen and the naked pastor David Hayward and others.
[00:20:10] Joshua Harris.
[00:20:11] Didn't he do a course through that?
[00:20:14] That's right. Joshua Harris when he I mean again on Instagram that blew up.
[00:20:18] Yeah.
[00:20:19] There were like 7000 comments in response to him just posting I'm no longer a Christian.
[00:20:26] Yeah.
[00:20:27] And you could see the responses and I'm telling you there were many who said this post is what sent me on my deconstruction journey.
[00:20:34] Right.
[00:20:35] There's at least three different categories of influencers out there and they're all playing into the same thing deconstruction but they all are coming at it from a different angle.
[00:20:46] Alisa for those who are familiar with your story how is this movement different from the path that you were on?
[00:20:54] This is a great question because I've actually changed my mind on on how I talk about this.
[00:21:00] Good.
[00:21:01] So over 10 years ago I had a faith crisis that was really agonizing.
[00:21:08] It was years long.
[00:21:10] I landed fairly quickly in going through some apologetics arguments knowing that God existed but just the doubts that would nag at me were just years of just this agonizing research reading thousands of pages of scholarship just trying to figure out if what I believe was actually true.
[00:21:28] And it was propelled by progressive pastor.
[00:21:32] I didn't know he was progressive at the time but I was in a church where there was this class going on and it sent my friends a bunch of my friends into deconstruction.
[00:21:42] And so when I wrote my first book about that journey I actually called the process that I went through deconstruction because it was horrible.
[00:21:49] I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
[00:21:51] It was agonizing and I had to kind of deconstruct if you just take the word at face value all of my beliefs and then build back from the beginning.
[00:22:00] But interestingly when I would go online and I would talk about my deconstruction deconstructionists would come on and say no you didn't deconstruct.
[00:22:08] And I'd be like at first that was so confusing to me.
[00:22:11] I'm like, well were you there?
[00:22:13] It was like this horrible.
[00:22:14] I'm the ultimate authority here.
[00:22:16] Yeah right.
[00:22:17] I know and they said well you didn't deconstruct because you still hold toxic to toxic theology.
[00:22:22] You still have toxic theological beliefs.
[00:22:24] And that's when I realized oh okay so this isn't just even though I knew it wasn't a good thing.
[00:22:30] I knew it was a horrible thing because again like I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy but it wasn't about truth.
[00:22:37] It's actually about leaving behind these beliefs that they think are toxic.
[00:22:40] And if you let's say you completely do hard work of years of studying and you decide that you are a sinner
[00:22:48] and that Jesus did die on the cross for your sins, that the Bible is God's word
[00:22:52] and that what Jesus claimed about himself is true and that he proved it by resurrecting from the dead.
[00:22:56] If you hold to those beliefs along with the biblical sexual ethic you have toxic theology
[00:23:02] and you got to go back to the drawing board and start over.
[00:23:04] So that's when I realized okay there's more to this.
[00:23:06] There's a goal.
[00:23:07] And so I actually correct myself, yeah I correct myself in the new book and say
[00:23:11] I don't actually use the language of deconstruction to describe what I went through
[00:23:15] because I was on a truth quest.
[00:23:17] I wanted to know what was true whether I liked it or not, whether it resonated with me or not.
[00:23:21] In fact what was interesting in the class I was in where all my friends ended up deconstructing
[00:23:25] and I mean all that I know of.
[00:23:27] There might be two that I lost touch with that maybe didn't but most of the people in the class that I know of did.
[00:23:32] And everything in that class was all about what resonates with me.
[00:23:36] They would talk about Bible verses and people would say well that just doesn't resonate with me.
[00:23:40] And they just would toss that aside and I'm going they're like what is that?
[00:23:43] You guys can't just, you can't just do that you know.
[00:23:45] And so yeah I didn't deconstruct.
[00:23:48] And so I corrected my language on that and really changed my mind about what I think it is
[00:23:53] and I think what I'm hoping to set the example for others is people who are wanting to use the word
[00:23:58] because it was trendy because I really had to think about that look why am I using the word?
[00:24:02] Why am I hanging onto this word?
[00:24:04] And I had to realize there's no reason for me to use that word because what I did was search for truth.
[00:24:09] I tested all things held fast to what is good that's biblical.
[00:24:12] I don't need a postmodern word to describe that and so that would be my journey with this word
[00:24:17] and kind of my relationship with it is that I've changed my mind.
[00:24:20] I didn't deconstruct.
[00:24:22] They said you re-entrenched.
[00:24:24] Yeah they just think I circled the wagons and found some people to agree with me
[00:24:28] which is so interesting to me because they weren't there.
[00:24:32] And that's the thing like you know Pete ends I've seen a comment from him.
[00:24:35] Oh, at least it doesn't know.
[00:24:37] He shouldn't understand deconstruction.
[00:24:38] He shouldn't get it.
[00:24:39] And I'm just like were you there?
[00:24:41] You weren't there.
[00:24:42] You have no idea what I went through but yet it's like they're so quick to say
[00:24:46] you know you have to respect my lived experience but they are the first ones
[00:24:50] that will not respect your lived experience if you land at historic Christianity for sure.
[00:24:55] That makes sense.
[00:24:58] You guys have spent hours on places like TikTok researching what leads people to deconstruct
[00:25:05] and what they all have in common.
[00:25:08] What are the common threads that you've noticed through that?
[00:25:12] Yeah, this is a good question.
[00:25:14] What we I mean some of the factors that we've noticed that kind of launch people into a deconstruction
[00:25:21] are things like doubts, unanswered questions.
[00:25:25] Virtually all these stories have some instance of suffering or pain.
[00:25:31] And we've all been through that.
[00:25:34] There's church hurt, there's spiritual abuse.
[00:25:38] Now we got to be careful about that a little bit because sometimes it's a real abuse that happens.
[00:25:45] Yes, and of course we would all want to say that is horrible and we stand against that.
[00:25:50] That is not of God and so when a pastor engages in that kind of thing he needs to be held accountable for it.
[00:25:57] But then on the other hand there's what we might call perceived abuse or perceived harm
[00:26:03] and this is where you know things like teaching the doctrine of hell.
[00:26:08] In our research we found that that's called, you know if you teach your kids it's child abuse.
[00:26:12] If you say that Jesus died for your sins that's considered toxic and abusive to tell someone that.
[00:26:20] Yet that's the gospel message.
[00:26:22] So we want to make sure that we distinguish between those things.
[00:26:26] Of course we just mentioned earlier about politics and Trump and all that stuff.
[00:26:31] So there's these different elements that you'll see peppered within these stories.
[00:26:37] Now we want to be quick to say that not all deconstruction stories are alike.
[00:26:43] In fact they're often very unique and that's because every single person is unique.
[00:26:48] So if you've heard one deconstruction story then you've only heard one, you know you haven't heard them all.
[00:26:53] But there are these common threads.
[00:26:55] One question that we asked when we were doing our research is why is it that two people can grow up in the same house?
[00:27:03] They can go to the same church, the same youth group, they have the same parents.
[00:27:07] They experience some of the same trauma, suffering, whatever.
[00:27:11] And yet one will deconstruct and the other maybe becomes even more faithful believer.
[00:27:19] What's going on there?
[00:27:21] And what we found is there it comes down to at least one element is a faith foundation.
[00:27:28] What is it?
[00:27:29] What is your faith foundation?
[00:27:32] Of course it's going to be different for different people.
[00:27:34] And what we need to be asking and we're challenging the church to ask is, you know,
[00:27:39] what does it mean to be a Christian?
[00:27:43] This is a question I was asked when I was in university by my friends who were non-believers.
[00:27:48] Tim why are you a Christian?
[00:27:49] And I honestly am shot back because my parents are Christians.
[00:27:52] That was my first response and I knew that ain't right.
[00:27:55] That was embarrassing.
[00:27:57] I grew up in the church.
[00:27:58] I had done all the church stuff and yet I did not have a strong Christian foundation,
[00:28:05] a strong Christian faith.
[00:28:07] And so I at that point was very susceptible to this kind of deconstruction, right?
[00:28:12] If TikTok was big at that time, you know, I could have watched a video and okay,
[00:28:16] I'm out of here.
[00:28:17] Yeah.
[00:28:18] This has been refuted.
[00:28:19] So I think that all those things I mentioned earlier can make you a good candidate for deconstruction.
[00:28:26] But they don't have to lead you down the path of deconstruction.
[00:28:30] Yeah.
[00:28:31] This is why it's really, really important that the church needs to be helping to develop
[00:28:37] and disciple Christians so they have a strong foundation.
[00:28:41] So when that crisis hits, they're able to stand firm in their faith.
[00:28:46] So is the faulty foundations that people are building on essentially, I mean,
[00:28:51] is the answer just anything but Christ?
[00:28:54] Is it in the institution of the church or in the leadership in the church
[00:28:58] or your favorite Christian singer?
[00:29:01] Do you find those were the main threads that came back?
[00:29:05] That's an interesting question.
[00:29:07] I think, you know, when I think about foundation,
[00:29:09] I was trying to think through this question even within my own context.
[00:29:13] So one of my sisters was not a Christian until she was an adult.
[00:29:17] And she would say that openly.
[00:29:19] That's part of her testimony.
[00:29:20] We grew up in church.
[00:29:21] We grew up in the same home.
[00:29:22] We had the same discipleship, the same youth pastors,
[00:29:25] pretty much the same experiences growing up, the same environment.
[00:29:29] And yet our foundation was different because I was a devoted Christian
[00:29:34] as far back as I can remember.
[00:29:36] I mean, I don't even remember a time where I didn't absolutely know
[00:29:39] that the Bible was God's word and Jesus was who he said he was.
[00:29:42] And yet for my sister, she grew up in the same environment
[00:29:45] but had a totally different foundation.
[00:29:47] She just, she went to church.
[00:29:48] She did all the things.
[00:29:49] She cooperated with it, but it was just like not,
[00:29:51] she never personally trusted in Christ.
[00:29:53] Yeah, okay.
[00:29:54] Yeah.
[00:29:55] And she may not have even realized that.
[00:29:56] You might have asked her at 12 years old, are you a Christian?
[00:29:58] She might have said, well, yeah.
[00:29:59] But she didn't know that she wasn't
[00:30:01] until she actually got saved as an adult.
[00:30:03] And so I think the foundation is more of a personal thing
[00:30:07] the way I see it is the level of understanding you might have had.
[00:30:10] You know, we have a lot of this sort of secret sensitive model
[00:30:14] that's over the past few decades has gotten really big.
[00:30:17] And I'm not saying it's wrong to have a large church
[00:30:19] or try to be sensitive to people who are seeking, of course.
[00:30:22] But some of those secret sensitive and mega church models
[00:30:25] really watered down the gospel,
[00:30:27] really sacrificed discipleship for numbers.
[00:30:31] And I think that that has resulted in a lot of people
[00:30:33] growing up in churches that maybe, you know,
[00:30:36] we don't speculate on this question in the book
[00:30:38] is where they really saved, where they not,
[00:30:39] because we don't know the end of their story either.
[00:30:41] Exactly.
[00:30:42] But I do think even right now,
[00:30:43] we have a lot of people in our churches
[00:30:45] who maybe not be Christians.
[00:30:47] It's because they're not getting the gospel.
[00:30:48] They're not getting Bible teaching
[00:30:50] and they might like the community
[00:30:52] and even like and believe certain things about it.
[00:30:54] But everybody's foundation is going to maybe
[00:30:56] be a little bit different.
[00:30:57] That's kind of how I see it.
[00:30:59] Well, I mean, not to steer us theologically,
[00:31:02] but it has to be the work of the spirit
[00:31:05] and the life of the person.
[00:31:07] And that's all in the sovereign timing of the Lord.
[00:31:10] And I wonder if sometimes in this American evangelical
[00:31:13] mindset from an older generation perspective,
[00:31:15] we have this understanding that my children
[00:31:17] should be Christians and they should be
[00:31:20] following the ways that I direct
[00:31:22] and then I should start seeing spiritual fruit
[00:31:24] in their life.
[00:31:25] Like, well, I don't know.
[00:31:27] I mean, is there something wrong with
[00:31:30] that happening at a later point?
[00:31:32] You know, just thinking from a parental
[00:31:35] appearance perspective.
[00:31:37] Maybe I've gone into the weeds there a little bit.
[00:31:40] Like Tim said, each deconstruction story is unique.
[00:31:43] I would say it like this.
[00:31:45] Every deconstruction story is unique
[00:31:47] and yet they're kind of all the same too in certain points.
[00:31:49] I mean, I know, yeah, we're getting in the weeds a little bit,
[00:31:51] but as a parent, I wouldn't want to push my kid
[00:31:53] to say they believe something they don't really believe.
[00:31:55] I want them to come to that on their own.
[00:31:57] That might come later for sure.
[00:31:59] And there's a level of you want your child
[00:32:01] to be honest with you.
[00:32:02] And I think sometimes we can put
[00:32:04] a false expectation on your child
[00:32:06] to be at a certain place when they're just not ready
[00:32:08] for that yet.
[00:32:09] And so what they're actually deconstructing
[00:32:12] is deconstructing whatever that false view.
[00:32:14] Again, as you said, there's different stories
[00:32:16] of deconstruction.
[00:32:17] But I mean, ultimately, if you deconstruct
[00:32:19] and never return back to your point,
[00:32:22] there was never faith to begin with.
[00:32:24] You experience the benefits of a covenant community
[00:32:27] or whatever it is.
[00:32:29] You know, as Hebrews says, you were tasting,
[00:32:31] but you weren't of that, you know,
[00:32:34] not all Israel is Israel.
[00:32:36] Do you think it's potentially because parents
[00:32:39] are unwilling to engage in the hard questions of the faith?
[00:32:43] Or do you think perhaps there is always just people
[00:32:46] who are going to rebel against Christ?
[00:32:48] Is it all of the above?
[00:32:50] You know, in your research, I don't know
[00:32:52] if you're working with people who have gone through it
[00:32:55] and then interviewing them.
[00:32:56] Are you tracing things back to a particular point
[00:32:59] or, you know, I think we all want to say,
[00:33:01] where's the blame lie?
[00:33:03] Where are you finding that?
[00:33:05] I think it's all of the above.
[00:33:06] A lot of these stories have unanswered questions.
[00:33:10] In fact, Alisa did a debate on unbelievable
[00:33:13] with Lisa Gunger.
[00:33:15] And she makes this really tragic statement
[00:33:17] where she said, you know, questioning
[00:33:20] was equivalent to sinning in our church.
[00:33:24] You know, if you question the pastor,
[00:33:26] if you question his teaching, whatever,
[00:33:28] you were in essence sinning.
[00:33:30] So confessing your questions is confessing your sins.
[00:33:34] And that mentality, I mean, we wrote a whole chapter
[00:33:37] called Questions.
[00:33:38] In that chapter, what we're trying to do,
[00:33:40] it's a little bit of a wake up call.
[00:33:42] We're trying to rattle the church a little bit
[00:33:44] and say, hey, we can do better.
[00:33:46] We ought to be the place where people feel safe
[00:33:51] to ask their questions and express their doubts.
[00:33:54] And I hope that everyone listening to this hears that.
[00:33:57] Tim and Alisa are not against questions.
[00:34:00] In fact, we're apologists.
[00:34:01] We travel around and we're doing our best to answer questions.
[00:34:04] So we're not against that.
[00:34:06] And we want the church to be a safe place.
[00:34:09] I mean, we give an example of Tim Keller
[00:34:11] at the end of his sermons, his services.
[00:34:14] He would do like a 40, 45 minute Q&A time
[00:34:18] where he would just stick around and, OK, come on up.
[00:34:21] And in New York City, where you have like,
[00:34:24] you know, a diversity of people, diversity of views coming in.
[00:34:28] You're going to have skeptics.
[00:34:29] You're going to have atheists.
[00:34:30] You're going to have whatever coming in
[00:34:32] and asking their hard questions.
[00:34:34] And when you think about it,
[00:34:36] the way we have our churches structured,
[00:34:38] at least most of them, there isn't really a Q&A time.
[00:34:42] That would be like a very special thing.
[00:34:44] Maybe every few months,
[00:34:46] the pastor will take questions or something.
[00:34:48] Give a special treat.
[00:34:49] Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:50] That's right.
[00:34:51] But for the most part, that's not there.
[00:34:53] I can give a lot of people the impression
[00:34:55] that questions aren't allowed here.
[00:34:57] You just listen to what's spoken, do what you're told,
[00:35:01] and that's the end of it.
[00:35:02] So I think that's part of it.
[00:35:04] But you also mentioned,
[00:35:05] yeah, maybe there's a rebellious heart too.
[00:35:07] Yeah.
[00:35:08] And man, you can't read the Bible very far
[00:35:10] without seeing someone who has a rebellious heart.
[00:35:14] Immediately.
[00:35:15] And so we, that's right.
[00:35:17] Just a couple pages in, right?
[00:35:19] Page three.
[00:35:20] And so you end up seeing that this is a realistic element
[00:35:23] that we need to be talking about too.
[00:35:25] And that's why we devoted an entire chapter
[00:35:27] to the deconstructor.
[00:35:29] Yeah.
[00:35:30] Because there are things about the deconstructor
[00:35:32] that are important to be aware of
[00:35:34] from a biblical anthropology perspective.
[00:35:36] And so there certainly are people who are seeking answers,
[00:35:41] and we want to be there to provide answers.
[00:35:43] But then there's also these questions out there
[00:35:45] that are seeking exits.
[00:35:47] Yeah.
[00:35:48] And you see lots of those.
[00:35:49] You see them in scripture, and we see, you know,
[00:35:52] when you got Richard Dawkins saying,
[00:35:53] well, who made God?
[00:35:54] Richard Dawkins should know better, you know?
[00:35:57] When my four-year-old asked that question,
[00:35:59] okay, fair enough.
[00:36:00] Yeah, right.
[00:36:01] But when you have an academic from Oxford
[00:36:03] asking that question as if it's legitimate
[00:36:06] of the Christian God,
[00:36:07] something else is going on.
[00:36:10] I remember Keller teaching on Job,
[00:36:13] and he says, Job is filled with questions, right?
[00:36:17] But the issue was that he never left God.
[00:36:20] He didn't say, I have questions,
[00:36:22] and now I'm going to go over here and ask them.
[00:36:24] But he kept asking the questions of the Lord
[00:36:27] in his particular situation.
[00:36:29] And he was saying that questioning can be a good thing
[00:36:32] because it's, as we talked earlier,
[00:36:35] all truth is Christ's truth.
[00:36:37] There's nothing to be afraid of.
[00:36:38] You're not going to get an answer
[00:36:39] where it should cause difficulty,
[00:36:42] but rather you're sticking close to the source
[00:36:45] and you're going to get your answers within reason.
[00:36:48] And it's interesting because that's what these tiktoks
[00:36:51] and all these things are creating
[00:36:53] is new avenues for you to go and ask questions
[00:36:56] and find a story that resonates with you, right?
[00:36:59] That's the big terminology we were using earlier.
[00:37:02] So that resonates with your story
[00:37:04] and how you feel and then where did they land?
[00:37:06] Well, that must be where I'm landing.
[00:37:08] How do we invite this sort of cultivating
[00:37:10] an openness for the asking of questions, right?
[00:37:14] Is it, let's have a Q&A session at the end of church?
[00:37:17] Is it when you start training our parents
[00:37:19] to have them understand that your kid's asking questions
[00:37:22] is a good thing because they're coming to you
[00:37:25] versus no everything's fine
[00:37:27] and I'm going to go to YouTube and find the answer
[00:37:29] because I think you're going to be mad at me
[00:37:31] or whatever it is.
[00:37:33] Help us think through that from a church perspective.
[00:37:35] Well, I think starting with the parents
[00:37:37] is a great place to start
[00:37:39] because if we can train parents to be the first person
[00:37:42] to introduce some of these difficult topics to their kids,
[00:37:45] we know statistically that the first person
[00:37:47] to introduce a topic will be viewed as the expert
[00:37:49] in the eyes of the child.
[00:37:51] So when we as parents are the first people
[00:37:53] to talk to our kids about gender and sexuality
[00:37:55] and all of these different things
[00:37:57] and promoting an environment where we're not weird about it,
[00:37:59] we're not acting awkward about it,
[00:38:01] then we want to be the Google, right?
[00:38:03] I want to be Google for my kids
[00:38:05] and that means I'm going to be really honest
[00:38:07] when they ask their questions
[00:38:09] and sometimes give more information than they wanted.
[00:38:11] She jokes with me like,
[00:38:13] I know that I'll get a straight answer from you
[00:38:15] with whatever I ask.
[00:38:17] So maybe even training parents to ask your kids questions
[00:38:19] like, hey, what's your biggest question about God?
[00:38:21] And parents don't need to be afraid of whatever their kids say
[00:38:24] because it's perfectly fine to say,
[00:38:26] wow, I've never really thought about that.
[00:38:28] Let's think that through together
[00:38:30] and then go do some research
[00:38:32] and continue to engage with your kid about it.
[00:38:34] But I think in the home, if we can start there,
[00:38:36] that's a great place
[00:38:38] and then the church can help come around parents
[00:38:40] and kids can help families and pastors doing Q&As.
[00:38:42] I think that's a huge way to promote that environment
[00:38:44] from the home all the way through the church culture.
[00:38:46] Okay, let's do a little sort of engaging
[00:38:49] with others segment here.
[00:38:51] What would you say to those
[00:38:53] who are seeing their loved ones
[00:38:55] go through deconstruction
[00:38:58] or evangelical?
[00:39:00] What would you say to them?
[00:39:02] Buy our book.
[00:39:04] Yeah, that.
[00:39:06] And I mean, the first thing
[00:39:08] that I would say is stay calm.
[00:39:10] Yeah.
[00:39:12] It can be not just earth shattering
[00:39:14] for the person going through deconstruction,
[00:39:16] but the loved ones, right?
[00:39:18] Of those deconstructors,
[00:39:20] it's often earth shattering.
[00:39:22] We talk about this in the book actually
[00:39:24] to find out that my kids
[00:39:26] have raised in the church,
[00:39:28] come to me and say, Dad,
[00:39:30] I don't believe any of this stuff anymore.
[00:39:32] I'm out. That would be crushing.
[00:39:34] And I would want to remind myself
[00:39:36] stay calm.
[00:39:38] I've heard so many stories
[00:39:40] and they're actually horror stories where
[00:39:42] a child comes to parent
[00:39:44] and says, I'm deconstructing
[00:39:46] and the parent just loses it.
[00:39:48] How could you do that?
[00:39:50] And they overreact or that's not going to help.
[00:39:52] That's the first thing.
[00:39:54] I would want my kids right away to know
[00:39:56] that they are loved, period.
[00:39:58] This doesn't change my love for them.
[00:40:00] I love you,
[00:40:02] but let me fix your theology.
[00:40:04] I love you, period.
[00:40:06] You're still my daughter.
[00:40:08] I'm still your dad.
[00:40:10] That's not going to change.
[00:40:12] And then another thing just to add is
[00:40:14] say thank you.
[00:40:16] It must have taken a lot
[00:40:18] for that individual
[00:40:20] if they come to you and share that
[00:40:22] they've deconstructed. It must have been
[00:40:24] a big deal to do that.
[00:40:26] So I would say thanks for sharing this
[00:40:28] with me and letting me be the person
[00:40:30] who can be there for you.
[00:40:32] I would like to read things.
[00:40:34] Obviously, the relationship is going to be
[00:40:36] so important. It's not necessarily
[00:40:38] that you're going to be able to
[00:40:40] maintain the relationship.
[00:40:42] We've heard stories of people getting
[00:40:44] non-contact letters from their
[00:40:46] loved one saying look
[00:40:48] at your theology is toxic.
[00:40:50] I don't want anything to do with you
[00:40:52] and so we're done.
[00:40:54] But if they're willing
[00:40:56] to stay in your life then we want to
[00:40:58] do whatever's possible
[00:41:00] to maintain that relationship.
[00:41:02] Without compromising truth,
[00:41:04] truth is absolutely necessary
[00:41:06] but you want to be in that relationship
[00:41:08] as long as possible because that's when
[00:41:10] you're going to be able to have
[00:41:12] probably the best impact.
[00:41:14] It's interesting you bought up Job earlier
[00:41:16] and Job's comforters
[00:41:18] started on the right track.
[00:41:20] They were there and they sat
[00:41:22] with Job or whatever it was
[00:41:24] silently for seven days
[00:41:26] and then it was when they started
[00:41:28] to see that they got themselves into trouble
[00:41:30] and I think we can learn something from that.
[00:41:32] So we want to hear, hey, tell me your story.
[00:41:34] One of the first questions I would want to know
[00:41:36] is what do you mean by deconstruction?
[00:41:38] If they're using that word,
[00:41:40] I want to know if they just mean
[00:41:42] hey I'm asking some questions,
[00:41:44] I don't know if I believe in this view of creation
[00:41:46] or this view of baptism
[00:41:48] and maybe I'm changing, okay that's different
[00:41:50] than what we're seeing online.
[00:41:52] This idea of a postmodern process.
[00:41:54] So I want to nail down
[00:41:56] what are you going through
[00:41:58] and what kind of process
[00:42:00] or methodology are you using to go through it.
[00:42:02] I want to be able to identify those things.
[00:42:04] And of course
[00:42:06] in the book we talk about this idea of triage.
[00:42:08] If you have a gunshot wound to the head
[00:42:10] but a broken finger
[00:42:12] they're treating the gunshot wound to the head, right?
[00:42:14] The thing that's more serious.
[00:42:16] And in a similar way
[00:42:18] once you understand where this person's
[00:42:20] coming from, you've heard their story
[00:42:22] you're going to be able to do some triage.
[00:42:24] Okay what's the most important thing
[00:42:26] in this moment?
[00:42:28] Is it that I answer all these questions
[00:42:30] that they're having?
[00:42:32] Or is it that they just need me
[00:42:34] to be with them because they are
[00:42:36] going through something.
[00:42:38] And I think that's important because sometimes
[00:42:40] we miss the mark, especially as apologists
[00:42:42] you know we want to like oh let me
[00:42:44] answer that question, let's go for coffee
[00:42:46] I'm going to fix your theology
[00:42:48] and then we'll just you know we'll be back on track.
[00:42:50] We'll fix the problem, yeah.
[00:42:52] That's likely not going to happen.
[00:42:54] And then finally I would just say
[00:42:56] continue to pray, you know.
[00:42:58] We cannot underestimate the power
[00:43:00] of prayer.
[00:43:02] If someone's going through deconstruction
[00:43:04] what they need is God, they need the Holy Spirit
[00:43:06] and so that's
[00:43:08] petitioned God on their behalf.
[00:43:10] Let's pray that God does whatever
[00:43:12] is necessary to draw that person
[00:43:14] back to himself.
[00:43:16] Alright now
[00:43:18] thinking for the person who is
[00:43:20] considering deconstructing their faith
[00:43:22] and again that could be
[00:43:24] a myriad of different
[00:43:26] positions along that path but
[00:43:28] what are the things that you would want them to know?
[00:43:30] Well, so here's
[00:43:32] what I would say. If someone is considering
[00:43:34] deconstruction as if it's like an option
[00:43:36] like oh maybe I'll deconstruct my faith
[00:43:38] and there's no
[00:43:40] crisis that's actually throwing you in
[00:43:42] deconstruction. I would say you don't need
[00:43:44] to do that. There's no biblical
[00:43:46] command to get saved, get baptized
[00:43:48] and then deconstruct your faith. You don't need
[00:43:50] to do that. If there are some
[00:43:52] incorrect theological views that
[00:43:54] maybe you grew up in a very legalistic
[00:43:56] stream of Christianity, maybe you
[00:43:58] grew up in the Mormon church, maybe you grew up
[00:44:00] as a Jehovah's Witness and you need to
[00:44:02] go to scripture
[00:44:04] make scripture your authority and then get rid
[00:44:06] of beliefs that were taught to you that are not
[00:44:08] biblical. I want you to know that that
[00:44:10] is a biblical process
[00:44:12] and that is what you should do.
[00:44:14] This is what we call disentangling, right?
[00:44:16] Well, yeah, so we would in our book we would
[00:44:18] call it Reformation. But yeah
[00:44:20] Ginger Duggar calls it
[00:44:22] disentangling. I don't care what you call it.
[00:44:24] It's just, I would really encourage
[00:44:26] you to not use the word deconstruction
[00:44:28] because deconstruction is a very specific
[00:44:30] thing that isn't about
[00:44:32] getting your theological beliefs corrected
[00:44:34] according to the Bible. And so
[00:44:36] we want to be reforming our faith according to scripture
[00:44:38] and so if you need to
[00:44:40] disentangle as Ginger would say
[00:44:42] or reform beliefs that were unbiblical
[00:44:44] well, please do that. And that can be
[00:44:46] a very long process. It can be a difficult
[00:44:48] process. But if somebody
[00:44:50] is listening who's maybe
[00:44:52] propelled into deconstruction through
[00:44:54] some church abuse or whatever it might be
[00:44:56] my encouragement would sort of be the same
[00:44:58] it's actually good for you to
[00:45:00] get rid of beliefs that led to
[00:45:02] abuse that you know Jesus stands
[00:45:04] against abuse as well. But I would
[00:45:06] just encourage you not to get sucked into
[00:45:08] this sort of deconstruction movement because
[00:45:10] it's not based on absolute truth. It's not
[00:45:12] based on scripture. And it's not going to
[00:45:14] lead you to any sort of healing or
[00:45:16] wholeness spiritually. And so
[00:45:18] whether you're just kind of considering
[00:45:20] it intellectually or you're thrown into it
[00:45:22] I would resist it. And that's
[00:45:24] there's going to be well-meaning evangelical
[00:45:26] leaders that will tell you you can
[00:45:28] deconstruct according to the Bible but
[00:45:30] I don't think you can. And so let's keep
[00:45:32] our language in the way we think about
[00:45:34] this biblical rather than kind of bringing
[00:45:36] in a postmodern concept that just
[00:45:38] clouds the muddies the water
[00:45:40] and causes confusion.
[00:45:42] Alright this is good because this goes to the
[00:45:44] next level. What do you say
[00:45:46] to those who believe that Christianity
[00:45:48] is toxic or patriarchal?
[00:45:50] What's your word to them?
[00:45:52] And then the follow up to that would be
[00:45:54] for believers
[00:45:56] when do we engage and when do we not
[00:45:58] engage with people who are
[00:46:00] kind of promoting that sort of ideology?
[00:46:02] I would want to ask some questions
[00:46:04] like what do they mean by toxic
[00:46:06] what do they mean by patriarchal
[00:46:08] to nail down those definitions? Are they
[00:46:10] appealing to something objective
[00:46:12] or are they appealing to something
[00:46:14] subjective based on their own
[00:46:16] kind of personal preferences? I think it's really
[00:46:18] important that we start
[00:46:20] with what's true
[00:46:22] before we can look at
[00:46:24] whether or not something is toxic
[00:46:26] or harmful or whatever. In the book
[00:46:28] we give the example of you stumble upon someone
[00:46:30] who's kind of beating on someone's
[00:46:32] chest you know
[00:46:34] and in that moment it may look like they're
[00:46:36] being abused but you come to find out
[00:46:38] that actually they've had a heart attack
[00:46:40] and that person is not beating on their chest
[00:46:42] they're doing chest compressions
[00:46:44] and even CPR this is
[00:46:46] that totally changes
[00:46:48] how you see that action
[00:46:50] it goes from being hey that's harmful
[00:46:52] and toxic to wait this is
[00:46:54] life-saving this is life-giving
[00:46:56] so I think that it's really
[00:46:58] important when I see
[00:47:00] deconstructionists talk about how hell
[00:47:02] is cosmic child abuse
[00:47:04] so first of all if there is
[00:47:06] such a place as hell
[00:47:08] for them it's not even on the table
[00:47:10] it's not even the question
[00:47:12] because it's a totally different
[00:47:14] philosophy a totally different world view
[00:47:16] I want to look at
[00:47:18] is this true? I give the example
[00:47:20] of hey I told my kids
[00:47:22] not to jam a knife into the wall socket
[00:47:24] well why not
[00:47:26] because there's electricity
[00:47:28] in there and it could electrocute you
[00:47:30] and kill you so any good parent
[00:47:32] warns their kids about that
[00:47:34] or touching the hot stove
[00:47:36] now is it harmful for me to tell them
[00:47:38] not to do that
[00:47:40] and everyone agrees no that's not harmful
[00:47:42] it's not toxic now it would be toxic
[00:47:44] if there was no such thing as electricity
[00:47:46] if I'm just playing these like
[00:47:48] games where I'm just trying to torment
[00:47:50] my kids so they're scared to
[00:47:52] do whatever this action
[00:47:54] make them terrified of the stove or something
[00:47:56] no okay the reason
[00:47:58] that they need to be careful around this
[00:48:00] hot stove or not stick stuff
[00:48:02] in the wall outlet is because
[00:48:04] there are dangers
[00:48:06] and if hell really is this kind of
[00:48:08] danger then we ought to
[00:48:10] appropriately talk about
[00:48:12] that issue look I'm not talking to my 3 year old
[00:48:14] about eternal
[00:48:16] conscious torment you know what I'm saying like
[00:48:18] obviously there's some
[00:48:20] appropriate you know when the
[00:48:22] time is right again sexuality
[00:48:24] we appropriately talk with those
[00:48:26] about those issues with our kids
[00:48:28] but we do talk about those things
[00:48:30] and that's because
[00:48:32] they're true and that's where we start
[00:48:34] that sort of answers a little bit
[00:48:36] of the next question which is that you both
[00:48:38] dedicated the book to your children
[00:48:40] I think we've kind of
[00:48:42] addressed it in terms of being available
[00:48:44] but but in light of everything that you know
[00:48:46] and all of that's going on with
[00:48:48] deconstruction and the questions and the
[00:48:50] struggles of the next generation
[00:48:52] how are you taking this
[00:48:54] and applying it as you raise your children
[00:48:56] well I know that this research has
[00:48:58] definitely affected
[00:49:00] how I parent in fact
[00:49:02] I went through a phase in the early stages of the research
[00:49:04] where I would hear myself
[00:49:06] saying things and I'm like that's going to end up
[00:49:08] in their deconstruction story
[00:49:10] and I found myself almost becoming
[00:49:12] way too passive
[00:49:14] it was probably just a couple of months when it was
[00:49:16] the research was so intense and it was new
[00:49:18] and it was like oh my gosh
[00:49:20] all these things I'm saying to my children is what people say
[00:49:22] they think is toxic and that's what
[00:49:24] they're deconstructing from but then I swung back around
[00:49:26] and I'm like no okay it's my job as a parent
[00:49:28] to teach my kids what's true about reality
[00:49:30] just because maybe cultures
[00:49:32] thinks that 2 plus 2 equals 5 now
[00:49:34] doesn't mean that I need to cower
[00:49:36] and say well you know
[00:49:38] I'm not going to be too legalistic about 2 plus 2 equals 4
[00:49:40] no 2 plus 2 equals 4
[00:49:42] you can believe what you want but this is what's
[00:49:44] true and so I actually
[00:49:46] what I've started to do is tell my kids look
[00:49:48] it's my job as your mom to teach you
[00:49:50] what's true about reality and what
[00:49:52] you believe about God and what you believe about
[00:49:54] morality is in the same category
[00:49:56] of science, math, logic
[00:49:58] these are facts about reality
[00:50:00] it's my job to teach you now you are
[00:50:02] the person who chooses to believe it or not
[00:50:04] and so what I've tried to do is really
[00:50:06] engage my kids in conversations but
[00:50:08] knowing also that
[00:50:10] statistically they might
[00:50:12] deconstruct one day but I have
[00:50:14] to leave a lot of that to the Holy Spirit
[00:50:16] and also to try to model
[00:50:18] to my children what a real believer
[00:50:20] looks like. I think that's a huge
[00:50:22] a huge element in parenting is
[00:50:24] letting our kids see us repent to them
[00:50:26] if we send against them in front of them
[00:50:28] reading our Bibles on a regular
[00:50:30] basis together, praying together as a family
[00:50:32] not just being Sunday Christians you know here
[00:50:34] in the south it's real easy to be
[00:50:36] just that Sunday Christian and then haunted by the ghost of Christ
[00:50:38] that's right and then you just
[00:50:40] kind of live like he doesn't exist the rest of the week
[00:50:42] you know and that's the thing about the Bible bell
[00:50:44] is like it's not like people are acting
[00:50:46] you know like doing pagan sacrifices
[00:50:48] during the week they're pretty much good people
[00:50:50] but it's just not relevant to their lives
[00:50:52] until Sunday comes around
[00:50:54] and just being different from that in front
[00:50:56] of our kids is something I've really
[00:50:58] tried to engage and just engaging
[00:51:00] their questions without pushing them
[00:51:02] I think is a huge thing like you mentioned earlier
[00:51:04] is letting them have their own
[00:51:06] story and their own journey and
[00:51:08] even you know as my son wrestled with
[00:51:10] the problem of evil for about two years
[00:51:12] really intensely I really didn't want to
[00:51:14] push him and I just validated
[00:51:16] that that's a good question that's an honest question
[00:51:18] to ask and let's talk to the Lord about it
[00:51:20] and let's think through some things but trying
[00:51:22] not to push him to just settle really quickly
[00:51:24] so that he can work this out for himself
[00:51:26] with discipleship and the guidance
[00:51:28] of parents but that's one of the ways
[00:51:30] it's really affected my parenting I think
[00:51:32] that's so good yes and amen to all that
[00:51:34] okay yeah I second that
[00:51:36] alright give us some hope
[00:51:38] this is your part three
[00:51:40] part three this can all sound
[00:51:42] pretty scary
[00:51:44] scary and
[00:51:46] off-putting and
[00:51:48] you know you can either block it out or
[00:51:50] it really
[00:51:52] yeah it really does seem
[00:51:54] hopeless especially
[00:51:56] if you spend any time
[00:51:58] kind of typing in hashtag
[00:52:00] deconstruction or hashtag
[00:52:02] xvangelical I mean I would
[00:52:04] go into my office here and start working
[00:52:06] and writing and I'd come out
[00:52:08] and I'd just be like you know
[00:52:10] my mood has changed my wife
[00:52:12] knew it oh yeah my wife saw
[00:52:14] it and my kids could see it
[00:52:16] and it was really discouraging
[00:52:18] and so I feel
[00:52:20] for those parents who
[00:52:22] have that loved one who's
[00:52:24] going through this and many do
[00:52:26] so we wanted to make sure we
[00:52:28] ended the book on a hopeful
[00:52:30] note and one of the things that we were thinking
[00:52:32] about in fact I think it started with a phone call
[00:52:34] I called Elisa and
[00:52:36] I remember I was sitting at my dining room table
[00:52:38] and I had a sermon that I was going to give on
[00:52:40] deconstruction and I'm like
[00:52:42] Elisa I need to end this thing with something
[00:52:44] hopeful because it is so
[00:52:46] and I had actually a parent
[00:52:48] reach out to me before the
[00:52:50] before I gave the sermon saying
[00:52:52] I really hope that you're going to give us some hope
[00:52:54] because they have a child themselves
[00:52:56] a young adult who's
[00:52:58] deconstructed and I'm thinking okay what is it Elisa
[00:53:00] help me out here and we just started
[00:53:02] talking back and forth
[00:53:04] so I don't know how this came up
[00:53:06] but eventually we started thinking about
[00:53:08] Easter weekend and of course
[00:53:10] you think about what was going
[00:53:12] on Friday night
[00:53:14] it's like Peter's
[00:53:16] there he's seen his
[00:53:18] savior his Messiah
[00:53:20] being crucified and his
[00:53:22] world is turned upside down
[00:53:24] right we could just imagine
[00:53:26] what that was like to go through this kind
[00:53:28] of traumatic experience
[00:53:30] and then of course it jumps to Sunday
[00:53:32] and Sunday
[00:53:34] brings with it resurrected hope
[00:53:36] and you have that
[00:53:38] angel shows up tells the women
[00:53:40] go and tell his disciples
[00:53:42] and Peter like Peter really
[00:53:44] needs to hear this Friday night
[00:53:46] he denied the Lord three times
[00:53:48] it was like a bad night
[00:53:50] for Peter but he's
[00:53:52] going to receive this resurrection
[00:53:54] hope on Sunday well we actually
[00:53:56] titled the last chapter
[00:53:58] Saturday because we think
[00:54:00] that a lot of people
[00:54:02] are living in what could
[00:54:04] be described as a Saturday
[00:54:06] now again we're not told much about that
[00:54:08] particular Easter Saturday
[00:54:10] so we can only speculate but real I mean
[00:54:12] what kind of questions
[00:54:14] were the disciples in particular
[00:54:16] Peter asking you know
[00:54:18] were they starting to doubt some of the things
[00:54:20] that they had been taught maybe like
[00:54:22] trying to explain away some of the
[00:54:24] miracles they had seen I mean
[00:54:26] it wasn't supposed to happen this
[00:54:28] way was it and so there's
[00:54:30] self doubt there's all this
[00:54:32] kind of stuff that they've experienced
[00:54:34] now
[00:54:36] Sunday was just around the corner we think
[00:54:38] that look if that hope can come
[00:54:40] for Peter then it can come
[00:54:42] for you and your loved one too
[00:54:44] right we don't know what that
[00:54:46] Saturday looks like it may not be tomorrow
[00:54:48] may not be just one 24 hour
[00:54:50] day it could be months down the road
[00:54:52] it could be years down the road
[00:54:54] but we think this is a message
[00:54:56] because if it can happen for Peter it can happen
[00:54:58] for your loved one and I think
[00:55:00] that's what I'm going to say
[00:55:02] is that if you're going to be
[00:55:04] a little bit more hopeless from a state
[00:55:06] of this is completely hopeless
[00:55:08] what good could come from this
[00:55:10] how can this be undone
[00:55:12] to a state where
[00:55:14] we can be hopeful
[00:55:16] Jesus rose from the grave
[00:55:18] after being dead and when
[00:55:20] that happened Peter's faith
[00:55:22] is restored
[00:55:24] right do you love me
[00:55:26] says yeah I love you three times
[00:55:28] so that brings me hope and hopefully
[00:55:30] it brings hope to others who are going through this
[00:55:32] just one final question
[00:55:34] have you seen anyone who's been restored
[00:55:36] out of this
[00:55:38] you know what I have heard a few
[00:55:40] stories just but these aren't people
[00:55:42] that have platforms so I
[00:55:44] have several people that are part of
[00:55:46] my Facebook community who have said
[00:55:48] they deconstructed into progressive Christianity
[00:55:50] but have been brought back
[00:55:52] I have had a couple of people on my personal
[00:55:54] podcast who had deconstructed
[00:55:56] one is a guy named Dave Stovall
[00:55:58] we actually tell his story in the book
[00:56:00] he was in the band Audio Adrenaline
[00:56:02] and he deconstructed into progressive Christianity
[00:56:04] and then a local pastor here in town
[00:56:06] discipled him back to the historic
[00:56:08] Christian faith and had all these
[00:56:10] difficult conversations with him and engaged
[00:56:12] him in conversation so I think we are
[00:56:14] seeing some we're not seeing a lot
[00:56:16] yet but I think a lot of the stories
[00:56:18] maybe are just more private where
[00:56:20] people aren't necessarily
[00:56:22] shouting it on social media
[00:56:24] the Lord's at work absolutely
[00:56:26] well that's good
[00:56:28] I can echo that too
[00:56:30] as I travel around teaching and speaking
[00:56:32] I'll have people come up to me
[00:56:34] usually you get a lot of people saying
[00:56:36] thanks for this information I had no idea
[00:56:38] what was going on
[00:56:40] but this one guy he said
[00:56:42] I went through deconstruction
[00:56:44] and he said it was when you put up
[00:56:46] your definition of deconstruction
[00:56:48] that you had me
[00:56:50] it was crazy I thought it was going
[00:56:52] to push back and be like but that's
[00:56:54] how you define it instead he said
[00:56:56] you had me as soon as you put up your definition
[00:56:58] why because
[00:57:00] he said that exactly described
[00:57:02] the process that I was going through
[00:57:04] and yet here he was
[00:57:06] on that Sunday morning at church
[00:57:08] completely turning
[00:57:10] a corner and
[00:57:12] willing to say no I'm willing to follow the truth
[00:57:14] wherever it leads and that led him
[00:57:16] to affirming that the
[00:57:18] Bible is God's word and now he's trying to
[00:57:20] align his beliefs
[00:57:22] and of course that's the journey we're all on
[00:57:24] I have false beliefs right now
[00:57:26] I just don't know which ones are false
[00:57:28] I'm always trying to correct my mistaken beliefs
[00:57:30] and make them align with scripture
[00:57:32] and praise the Lord that was the journey
[00:57:34] he was on
[00:57:36] Amen
[00:57:38] Well the book is the deconstruction of Christianity
[00:57:40] what it is, why it's destructive
[00:57:42] and how to respond
[00:57:44] Elisa Childers, Tim Barnett
[00:57:46] Thank you guys so much for being on
[00:57:48] Candid Conversations I've really enjoyed
[00:57:50] our talk today. Me too, thanks so much
[00:57:52] Yes it was a lot of fun, thanks for having us
[00:57:54] Candid is a podcast
[00:57:56] from Leading the Way with Dr. Michael Youssef
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