Episode 225: How to Consider Conflicting Opinions in the Church: Dr. Bruce Lowe

[00:00:00] We need to recognize as Christians that it is not a mature position to just come down

[00:00:09] on everything, like in a very black and white world.

[00:00:12] All answers are great and therefore if we let Scripture be our guide we have to agree

[00:00:18] that when it comes to complicated problems we must anticipate that the answer to those

[00:00:23] complicated problems are going to require nuances.

[00:00:32] Hello and welcome to Candid where we never settle for less than the truth.

[00:00:37] I'm your host Jonathan Youssef, each week we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions

[00:00:43] and take a candid look at the Christian faith.

[00:00:46] Today we have a special repeat guest with us Dr. Bruce Lowe, a favorite seminary professor

[00:00:52] at Reformed Theological Seminary and a voice of biblical wisdom.

[00:00:57] Today we are discussing Christian Liberty and how to handle differing opinions within

[00:01:02] the Christian Church.

[00:01:04] Together we'll explore the delicate balance between conviction and grace, navigating the

[00:01:10] complexities of disagreements within the Christian faith and understanding when to hold

[00:01:16] our beliefs with a closed hand and when to embrace Christian Liberty.

[00:01:22] Settle in and prepare for a thoughtful and inspiring candid conversation.

[00:01:28] Today we're thinking about how isolated we can feel in Christian community, we feel the

[00:01:34] pressure to conform and we feel this need to align ourselves with people who only align

[00:01:43] with vast majority of our views.

[00:01:46] We don't have open channels of conversation with people who may disagree on big issues

[00:01:53] and small issues.

[00:01:54] We know that as Christians there are certain things we hold with a closed hand and

[00:01:58] there are many things we hold with open hands.

[00:02:02] This is issues of Christian Liberty.

[00:02:04] I've invited Bruce to come and help lead us through a conversation about Christian Liberty.

[00:02:09] Bruce, thank you so much for being with us again.

[00:02:12] I'm glad to be here, Jonathan.

[00:02:14] It's yours.

[00:02:15] Yeah.

[00:02:16] Well, thank you.

[00:02:17] You and I have been chatting some more about this before we got together and we both

[00:02:21] agree that this is a tricky subject.

[00:02:24] It just feels like there's lots of moving parts.

[00:02:27] That always makes for a difficult conversation.

[00:02:30] It's obvious that we know that truth matters.

[00:02:33] Because truth matters when we see error around about us, we start to wonder what extent

[00:02:38] I'm irresponsible to say into that space and have a voice into that space.

[00:02:43] And then we feel guilty sometimes that we haven't stepped into that space and said something,

[00:02:48] but other times we do step into that space and say something.

[00:02:51] Or we always step into that space.

[00:02:53] Right.

[00:02:54] That's right.

[00:02:55] Too much.

[00:02:56] And we get labeled as the person who steps into that space.

[00:02:58] Right.

[00:02:59] Exactly.

[00:03:00] And then we kind of double down the second guess.

[00:03:01] It was interesting that just yesterday a student came to me and said, I'm the person,

[00:03:06] I'm the kind of theological policeman and help me because I feel like I'm overstepping

[00:03:11] my bounds.

[00:03:12] Yeah.

[00:03:13] Exactly does this make sense.

[00:03:14] That's right on.

[00:03:15] This is exactly the topic.

[00:03:16] Well, and for those listening at home, if you're wondering specifically what we're talking

[00:03:20] about, I mean, this again as we said, it can range in topics.

[00:03:24] Rather, it can range in subject matter and issues that come up in your life.

[00:03:28] We've just finished the Reformation Halloween holiday.

[00:03:32] And I know that there's a lot of points of contention about whether you let your kids

[00:03:36] go out and trick or treat.

[00:03:38] And there seems to be a lot of images of demonic things and the raising of the dead and

[00:03:45] skeletons and all that sort of thing.

[00:03:46] So it's how much do you introduce your kids to culture?

[00:03:51] Do you balance that with the right biblical teaching or is it that you just let them

[00:03:56] be a part of it because it's just fun?

[00:03:58] And I've seen lots of friends who have become engaged in heavy debate just on that issue.

[00:04:03] And now that could continue on through the holidays.

[00:04:05] Do you do bunnies and eggs at Easter?

[00:04:08] Do you do Santa Claus at Christmas?

[00:04:10] And I know you'll probably cite this, but what schools do I send my kid to because people

[00:04:16] do want to step into that space.

[00:04:19] There might be a space for that.

[00:04:22] And so that's kind of just to kind of set the stage for us a little bit more firmly.

[00:04:26] These are the issues we're talking about.

[00:04:28] And I mean, if I could just even muddy the water even for you.

[00:04:31] When your children become teenagers and when they start to gain some agency at the point

[00:04:37] that when the young you are the agent, you are the one who, in a sense, dictates things.

[00:04:42] But what about when there's that transition happening there?

[00:04:45] If you're the person who's being that police officer for everybody else and you're doing

[00:04:50] that for your own kids, often I see that that's the same person who struggles to work

[00:04:55] out how to navigate it with your own children, to get them freedom and space.

[00:05:00] If things are kind of controlled right to the way they're going through it.

[00:05:04] When they leave and they go off to college then all of a sudden they're free and there

[00:05:08] can be a reaction against that agency of the parents.

[00:05:11] So this is huge.

[00:05:13] This delts into the dynamics of how you transition with your children in the ways that

[00:05:18] you know into those teenage years.

[00:05:21] So yeah, this is a huge topic.

[00:05:23] I reckon the best iron ramp is scripture and the best iron ramp is scripture not just

[00:05:29] read as an isolated proof text or even a proof chapter.

[00:05:34] But I would love to even kind of navigate into first Corinthians as an entire letter because

[00:05:40] what's so interesting about first Corinthians is that it contains many, many issues clear

[00:05:45] that the Corinthians divided over the question of marriage and singleness, divided over

[00:05:50] the question of food sacrifice to idols, divided over the question of head covering, over

[00:05:55] the Lord's supper, you know, they divided over spiritual gifts.

[00:05:59] So it's a congregation that's divided.

[00:06:01] Yes.

[00:06:02] Now Paul is therefore faced with this very question, how do I approach a congregation that's

[00:06:08] divided?

[00:06:09] And this is where we need to go back as readers and look at chapter one because what Paul

[00:06:14] does in the purpose statement of the letter actually is that he says that he wants them

[00:06:20] to be of one mind.

[00:06:22] And what he goes on to talk about is a complete chapter later, the idea of us having

[00:06:27] the mind of Christ.

[00:06:29] And so you know who knows this mind of a man except the spirit of a man that talks about

[00:06:33] how we have the mind of Christ.

[00:06:35] So we enter in the spirit.

[00:06:36] Yeah, that's right.

[00:06:37] Exactly.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:39] So the possibility even of unity for Paul doesn't boil down to simply working out the right

[00:06:47] answer to every question.

[00:06:48] Yeah, there's room for disagreement.

[00:06:51] Exactly.

[00:06:52] But you still built into the unity in the body of Christ with the mind of Christ, you know,

[00:06:57] having the spirit.

[00:06:58] And I think that's such an important thing that I think we can so easily forget because

[00:07:02] we think we need to have the exact same view, take, conclusion on every single issue.

[00:07:10] And I think that's where we find our disagreement, our points of differences and which leads

[00:07:16] to argumentation and thinking, you know, this person's reprobate and needs to be cast

[00:07:21] out.

[00:07:22] You know, and that's not helpful.

[00:07:24] I think this is a fantastic start to the conversation in terms of laying that groundwork

[00:07:29] of where we're launching from.

[00:07:31] Yeah.

[00:07:32] And I think that there's some real practical stuff in first Corinthians that I would even

[00:07:36] love to talk about next.

[00:07:38] You know, that I think really do speak to this issue.

[00:07:41] How do you disagree?

[00:07:42] Like having a theology of disagreement as it were, knowing when I need to say stuff,

[00:07:48] when I shouldn't say stuff, when does my own responsibility or where does my own responsibility

[00:07:53] begin and end when it comes to other believers?

[00:07:57] Yeah.

[00:07:58] So I think that's huge.

[00:07:59] And I think we've got to speak to this very directly and say that the centerpiece of

[00:08:03] the entire discussion as it reaches its climax near the end of first Corinthians is

[00:08:07] first Corinthians 13.

[00:08:08] Yes.

[00:08:09] And then just about love.

[00:08:10] Yes.

[00:08:11] And then that can be hijacked by people.

[00:08:14] Yes.

[00:08:15] And therefore it can get blacklisted as a concept that love really matters.

[00:08:19] And so it's like, hey, if you don't let me live this kind of lifestyle.

[00:08:22] You don't love me.

[00:08:23] If it's a Christian, you don't love me.

[00:08:24] And therefore you're against first Corinthians 13.

[00:08:27] Exactly.

[00:08:28] So again, you know, it's so easy for a scripture to get hijacked.

[00:08:31] But let's give it an honest reading here and let's see that no, no, no, this is still

[00:08:35] the centerpiece and that Paul believes with all his heart that the only way the Corinthian

[00:08:41] problem is going to be solved.

[00:08:42] Yes.

[00:08:43] Because when people are filled with the Holy Spirit, which gives them the mind of Christ

[00:08:48] and when there's Christian maturity happening and then they're going to know where and when

[00:08:52] and how they they need to speak up and step in when they need to give freedom and leeway

[00:08:58] to their person.

[00:09:00] This is the only way that the solution is really going to come about when those things

[00:09:05] are happening.

[00:09:06] And yet Paul knows that he still has to deal with these controversies with people.

[00:09:11] So I think the beautiful thing about first Corinthians is that Paul is in one sense

[00:09:15] an idealist, that he believes in the ideal of the work of God and the possibility that

[00:09:21] the work of God is going to take place in the lives of Christians and they're going to

[00:09:25] become mature to the point where they're able to navigate together and for themselves

[00:09:31] and together as a church how to work through issues together.

[00:09:35] So he believes, I mean there's an optimism about first Corinthians that is just wonderful

[00:09:40] and it's an optimism where Paul does not believe that his own answers to their questions

[00:09:45] are actually the key to the questions themselves.

[00:09:47] Right.

[00:09:48] He believes that there's a deeper unity that is caused by God and that there's a deeper

[00:09:53] unity that when the Holy Spirit breeds the fruit of the Spirit which of course according

[00:09:58] to Galatians 5 starts with love that when true love is enacted then that will be the

[00:10:03] solution.

[00:10:04] And yet Paul is still willing to engage in those questions.

[00:10:08] So we kind of get a beautiful two bites of the cherry here, the ideal which would be

[00:10:13] good for us to come back to all the time and circling back into but we also then get

[00:10:18] the dynamics of Paul's actual dealing with key controversial topics of the day.

[00:10:23] They weren't the same controversy, they weren't the Halloween and the homeschooling

[00:10:28] and you know COVID masks and vaccines and all of those things.

[00:10:31] Right.

[00:10:32] So we're all different kinds of set of problems, they were their own set of problems.

[00:10:36] And we can definitely derive principles from those.

[00:10:38] Well, I think the person listening also needs to remember you know this isn't an episode

[00:10:42] to make you feel like oh I've done that and now I feel terrible but rather you know

[00:10:49] the Lord can use those things for his purposes in fact he says he will.

[00:10:54] And so it's not a thing where you need to feel like you need to be mistake free.

[00:10:59] You're still going to continue to step into things you shouldn't and not step into

[00:11:04] things you should.

[00:11:05] And that's going to continue on but the key I think is kind of what the portrait you've

[00:11:10] been painting for us which is a sense of what Paul talks about in terms of we're growing

[00:11:14] in maturity, we're growing in our wisdom and our love and as those things flourish and

[00:11:20] develop and grow then these issues become a little bit easier.

[00:11:24] Yes.

[00:11:25] They don't necessarily go away but I think the thought process becomes a little bit easier

[00:11:30] and hopefully the relational capacity between individuals and groups is on a better footing.

[00:11:36] So I just want to kind of add that caveat before we jump.

[00:11:39] Yeah, no I think that's great.

[00:11:41] Well you know look I mean just to jump one step further into first Corinthians.

[00:11:45] One of the things that I always tell my students when we start a study on first Corinthians

[00:11:49] is that Paul does not give childish answers to complicated problems.

[00:11:54] You know when you ask the question to jump into one example food sacrifice to idols,

[00:11:58] is it right for a Christian to go down to the market and buy a piece of meat that has

[00:12:04] been first of all sacrifice to idols.

[00:12:06] And honestly in the ancient world that would have been the case.

[00:12:08] You wouldn't want to waste your life of an animal.

[00:12:11] You know you could just slid its throat behind the shop, bring it out, drain it, bring

[00:12:15] it out and seal it.

[00:12:16] But why not have it sacrifice first and then you can kind of get some income from that process

[00:12:22] and then you get to use the meat later.

[00:12:24] So it's kind of, you know it's an economic thing that the meat at the meat market is going

[00:12:29] to be offered to idols probably.

[00:12:32] And so the question is well should I be eating this food that sacrifice to an idol as

[00:12:36] a Christian?

[00:12:37] You know as the food being tainted somehow and you can understand how some Christians

[00:12:42] were struggling with that and other Christians were okay with it.

[00:12:46] And there you go, you know they were right in the thick of a question.

[00:12:49] Paul's answer is never in any of these cases whether it be food, facts, sacrifice

[00:12:54] to idols, whether it be marriage, whether it be you know the Lord's supper or whatever

[00:12:59] it be.

[00:13:00] His answer is constantly yes but this yes but in some circumstances this in other circumstances

[00:13:08] that.

[00:13:09] And so if we're going to just present this as an overall statement we need to recognize

[00:13:14] as Christians that it is not a mature position to just come down on everything in a very

[00:13:22] black and white way.

[00:13:23] Yeah.

[00:13:24] Paul's answers are great and therefore if we let scripture be our guide we have to agree

[00:13:30] so when it comes to complicated problems we must anticipate that the answer to those

[00:13:35] complicated problems are going to require nuances.

[00:13:38] And what you're not saying is that there are doctrinal issues that are not black and

[00:13:42] white.

[00:13:43] We're very clear in other areas about you know the essentials of the faith.

[00:13:48] We're talking about what you said complicated issues which is our topic on Christian liberty

[00:13:53] or as you put it a theology of a disagreement I think that's probably what we're going to

[00:13:57] name this episode actually I love that so that's the nuance position that we're taking

[00:14:01] here.

[00:14:02] Exactly and that's the danger here again isn't the extremism that says oh you're saying

[00:14:07] that there's no truth and everything's relative not at all because like in 1 Corinthians

[00:14:13] 15 Paul is willing to say you know what when it comes to the resurrection if you don't

[00:14:17] believe in the resurrection of Christ then all is lost.

[00:14:21] So there's a very strong black and white statement being made there with reference to

[00:14:25] that and when you move into say the subject of the Lord's supper you know he's saying look

[00:14:30] there's a practicality here some people God's judgment is happening here in the community

[00:14:35] because of the way that you're doing this wrong yeah so he's not saying that there's

[00:14:39] no concrete absolutely not and none of us no one would ever say that.

[00:14:42] It's again it's only when we run to these kind of like desires of extremism.

[00:14:47] Yeah we're wanting to push that through an extreme as well now we're talking about complicated

[00:14:52] issues we're talking about non essentials yeah you know and having liberty in those

[00:14:57] moments okay but here's the catch though how does one distinguish between essentials and

[00:15:02] non essentials right because someone might be saying yeah but that example it feels like

[00:15:08] you need to have yes or no answer to it where do you draw the line on well this is a

[00:15:14] an essential this is a non-essential how do you you know sort of lay that out yeah yeah

[00:15:19] that's a great question look I think that this is such an important topic as well because

[00:15:25] I think for a lot of people everything would seem essential you know you can kind of trace

[00:15:30] a trajectory yeah that says okay if if I don't speak up to these Christian moms who I'm

[00:15:37] speaking to as a fellow mom and I don't strongly encourage them not to let the kids go trick

[00:15:43] or treating yeah then what's going to happen their kids are going to get into the occult

[00:15:48] and you know and so you kind of trace this trajectory yeah that then creates this massive weight

[00:15:54] on people and I think that you know and it can be very sincere yeah without a doubt you know

[00:16:01] I mean on a lot of church doctrinal issues that separate churches you know there can be this

[00:16:06] kind of idea that this is so important about obedience and God is a God of truth and therefore

[00:16:12] any truth that's kind of dumb down is going to be offensive and you know and so it's kind

[00:16:17] of this tracing of a trajectory so I would say the difficulty in all of this is that every Christian

[00:16:23] once we go down this track of kind of tracing the trajectory of implications yeah everything's

[00:16:30] essential everything becomes essential yeah and so I think we've got to stop doing that we've got

[00:16:35] to stop kind of saying okay what's the implications here and we've got to start with the core issue

[00:16:40] to start with yes so the core issue of does the Bible speak specifically or with strong principles

[00:16:49] to a particular issue yeah or doesn't it right and if it doesn't speak to it then what

[00:16:56] right do we have to kind of join certain dots that are sort of a bit you know yes yeah kind of

[00:17:02] to navigate into the importance of it again if we leave aside this idea of the trajectory

[00:17:07] of the one a leads to be necessarily leads to C and D and E like the the kids going into the occult

[00:17:13] right um if we leave that aside which I feel like is not a helpful route we then go back to the

[00:17:19] core issue itself and we need to ask the question is this core issue being spoken of in scripture or

[00:17:24] not now let me give you some examples of where there are some quite extraordinary things that could have

[00:17:31] been spoken about which don't receive attention and one is entertainment yeah in the ancient world

[00:17:37] entertainment was a big deal you know we have um the games and all of these kinds of things happening

[00:17:43] and the Bible just actually doesn't speak to them you know and Paul could have in many occasions or

[00:17:49] the New Testament authors in many occasions could have stopped and said you know what Christian

[00:17:54] shouldn't be wasting their time yeah you know going down to these games or you know there's certain

[00:17:58] blood sports and Christian shouldn't be doing this and doing it you know we need to realize that

[00:18:03] that they weren't living in a bubble that they were living in a society where these things were

[00:18:07] happening all around about all around them yeah and you know you could say things like well there

[00:18:11] was sexual practices taking place in some of these pagan festivals you know and often they were

[00:18:17] very public and again those things aren't even spoken about it seems like the Christians believe

[00:18:23] more and more as there's maturity in the heart yeah then the Holy Spirit is going to be able to

[00:18:28] guide people to know where and when and how to do certain things so they would go to be just

[00:18:33] super careful yeah to not speak to issues and make them essentials where the Bible doesn't make

[00:18:39] them a sense I think that is an extremely important point to be made I think you're right on with

[00:18:44] that and I think this is an important thing of understanding yourself so if you know you have a

[00:18:50] weakness or a proclivity towards something you know what the Spirit's not going to be telling you

[00:18:56] giving you the green light to go to something like that right but that's now within you as an

[00:19:01] individual and not a hard and fast rule that you have to create for everyone else that might not

[00:19:07] be an issue for someone else who can go and and have enjoyment and you know have opportunities for

[00:19:12] whatever so I think that's a really important sort of addition that we put in there for that I

[00:19:17] think that's helpful so where we have gone with this conversation here too is like we've kind of

[00:19:22] talked about the fact that Paul doesn't give baby answers yeah he doesn't give childish answers to

[00:19:27] complicated problems yeah and so I think the other thing to recognize is the dignity

[00:19:33] people who have different opinions see it's easy to have a judgmental spirit and to immediately

[00:19:38] think okay this person's being worldly this person doesn't care this person you know and again

[00:19:44] this happens with the kind of party spirit that's happening today you know you come across a certain

[00:19:49] other Christian who might let's say have a certain view about the environment about global warming

[00:19:54] or something and then it's like okay it's immediately assumed in this kind of ad hominem art

[00:20:00] that because they believe that then they must believe this and believe that there's an immediately

[00:20:04] a suspicion about them we want to categorize people yeah right we want to put them in camps and

[00:20:10] categories their liberal their woke their that's right fill in the blank and honestly it's because

[00:20:15] we're lazy we're lazy in our thinking yeah it's easier quite frankly to just write someone off

[00:20:22] yeah and to say I don't want to deal with that issue you know yeah we feel also like if we have

[00:20:26] been drawn into that area into that space where we have to wrestle like Paul does I'll repeat

[00:20:31] it again yeah yeah we has to wrestle through the nuances of things then we feel in danger we feel

[00:20:38] kind of wrong footed it feels much safer to stay within our camp yeah to stay within our fixed

[00:20:43] boundary of position yeah and the actual active engagement and the fear that we might come to a

[00:20:49] nuanced position now I can cause conscience issues for people yeah you know Paul says well okay

[00:20:55] there's nothing wrong with the meat sacrifice to an idol and he's kind of presenting a fairly

[00:21:00] reasonable position he's like saying you know it's meat right it's a it's a thing the idol is nothing

[00:21:06] yeah the idol is nothing it's a block of wood you have a piece of meat or a block of you know

[00:21:10] whatever the material is and you have the meat and so be it the meat you know it's a physical object

[00:21:16] it can't be tainted and so it shouldn't be a problem but if your brother whose conscience is weak

[00:21:24] on the issue thinks there's a problem yeah then you need to take your brother into account now there's

[00:21:30] something that needs to be said here very very important that danger that Paul isn't recognizing

[00:21:35] is that if by eating you lead your brother to go against his or her conscience yeah and resist it

[00:21:41] yeah he's or her conscience and to then do what's against their conscience in other words

[00:21:46] to lead them to say well I don't know if I should be doing this and I don't know that God's

[00:21:51] pleased with this but I'm going to do it anyway then that's where sin is actually you're sitting

[00:21:55] because you're you're kind of saying I don't really care what God thinks about this right so this

[00:22:00] needs to be spoken of I think this needs to be made very clear yeah there are a lot of

[00:22:04] circumstances where the person who disagree with you is never going to be drawn into your

[00:22:11] behavior pattern it's not because they have a conscience issue it's actually because they have a

[00:22:15] very strong opinion about it yeah so let's say uh drinking alcohol for example yeah let's say

[00:22:20] you're in a meal with somebody and they have very strong opinions that they shouldn't drink alcohol

[00:22:27] then impose that upon other people right if you then order alcohol you say well that person could

[00:22:32] come back and say well you are going against first Corinthians because you uh but the answer is no

[00:22:37] no I'm actually not making you stumble because you're not going to order a beer because I order

[00:22:43] order a beer right in fact you're going to be mad that I order a beer potentially and so I think

[00:22:48] we've got a differentiator this again this this passage is about the person who's struggling

[00:22:53] and it's about the act of love yes in not wanting to them to stumble yes so if we're looking outside

[00:22:59] of ourselves and we're constantly thinking how can I keep from drawing somebody out of outside

[00:23:06] of where their conscience allows them to be those are the principles that are work here

[00:23:11] and again it's a very different situation from this party spirit and this kind of clashing

[00:23:15] yeah of ideas now if we carry on that discussion just a little bit further Paul then goes on to

[00:23:22] the question of what about participating in an idle feast you know and he goes now hang on that's

[00:23:28] a different situation right because now you've got a religious ceremony right and now you've got

[00:23:33] the worship of demons etc etc and he kind of says no you shouldn't do that so his answer is very

[00:23:39] nuanced and he's answer then even with non-Christians and nuance because he says if a non-Christian

[00:23:44] invites you to the house and you want to go um then you go and see even there's liberty there

[00:23:51] actually yeah right go right and he says when you go and if someone raises an issue about oh this

[00:23:57] was that sacrifice to an idol should you be eating it he says don't eat it for conscience sake

[00:24:02] and he says not your conscience because you're totally free but for their conscience you don't have

[00:24:06] time and a meal to explain the nuances you know right yeah party atmosphere yeah that is like well

[00:24:12] hang on actually technically I'm allowed because what they're going to do is make a quick judgment

[00:24:16] on you and they're going to say okay clearly you have no regard for God and clearly you're kind of

[00:24:21] morphing into paganism here yeah what message are you going to send there so in that situation Paul

[00:24:27] says well actually you shouldn't do that so there are stipulations about right and wrong Paul is

[00:24:32] willing to navigate and he's willing to make judgment calls on certain things these judgment calls

[00:24:37] are incredibly nuanced and again if I could double back on this and say that our challenge here

[00:24:43] I think the first step is really recognizing that it is biblical to come to a nuanced position on

[00:24:49] things I think that a lot of people struggle because their conscience hasn't gone beyond the

[00:24:57] position of being able to have a nuanced position I think that they simply struggle to have that

[00:25:03] as a disposition and like I said some of it is a conscience issue feeling like if I go down this path

[00:25:10] if I actually dialogue with somebody who has a different opinion to me then I may compromise right

[00:25:16] and so it's a conscience issue but I also think to be frank it's a laziness issue it's a mental

[00:25:22] laziness issue there can be a laziness and I'm sorry to listen as if I'm being a little frank

[00:25:28] yet but being candid I'm being candid yeah that there can be a mental laziness that people aren't prepared

[00:25:35] to think through biblically what is and isn't allowed and what are some of the nuances and what

[00:25:40] are some biblical principles that can help or even just engage in the conversation with someone

[00:25:46] and to have that in a helpful manner but you're right we almost crave the black and white

[00:25:51] because it's simple and it's easy for me to know what I can and can't do and what I should be

[00:25:57] telling you know my fellow Christians what they can and can't do again on nuanced issues

[00:26:03] and the problem with this is that you can't run away and hide on the disengagement question

[00:26:08] because like if you've got kids then it's going to happen yeah as they try to navigate this

[00:26:13] yes the black and white if you don't help them to navigate those questions and you're not able

[00:26:17] to navigate those questions you're not actually positioned to help them and transition them

[00:26:22] towards adulthood yeah so this is no small issue the inability to to move beyond just a very simple

[00:26:30] simplistic way of thinking about issues yeah there's no small issue it's and I'll say it again

[00:26:35] the reason though for for those of us who are listening who are convinced that God has been

[00:26:40] pleased to give us so many precious gifts and one of the precious gifts being scripture itself

[00:26:44] that scripture is being given to us in its richness and its nuances and it's biblical it's a

[00:26:51] hundred percent biblical to look at first Corinthians and see that Paul is refusing to give simplistic

[00:26:56] baby childish answers yeah to complicated problems yeah yeah well and that was kind of the issue

[00:27:03] with the Corinthian church yeah they wanted the baby answer and there's where a lot of the

[00:27:07] differential was you know this group said yes this group said no what's the answer Paul and

[00:27:13] that's interesting that he does he comes into the gray area and says and yet your commonality

[00:27:18] again is not going to be on the solution or the answer to this particular nuance question it still

[00:27:24] goes back to your foundation in Christ in the spirit and the love that because of him you now hold

[00:27:30] with one another which I'm glad that you've come back circled back back around to that and I love

[00:27:34] there's something you said earlier that I wanted to write down because I think it's an important

[00:27:38] factor we need to think about and I think we often forget which is that we need to step outside of

[00:27:44] ourselves in a lot of these situations I remember talking with someone recently and I was telling them

[00:27:50] about a particular family and I could tell their immediate reaction was oh you know almost like

[00:27:57] why would they do that or why would they allow that in their family and then they said you know

[00:28:02] we don't know what's going on with that family you know we don't know what's going on inside

[00:28:07] the relationships and the dynamics so it was really kind of a great reminder to me that it's like

[00:28:13] we need to just just pause for a second and not jump to a conclusion you know they're out because

[00:28:19] they're making these terrible decisions but rather there's a reasoning behind what they're doing

[00:28:24] and then you know that's an opportunity to step in for ministry and not to hammer people with black

[00:28:30] and white but rather to help navigate some of the nuance things in a helpful way rather than you

[00:28:38] know to the student who came to you and said I like to police everything you know I think we're all

[00:28:44] easy to be police officers and calling things right and wrong yeah well where should we go from

[00:28:51] here this has been so helpful to me just even in my own you know thinking about just different

[00:28:58] situations that we face even from a church perspective and relationally and I think what

[00:29:06] might be helpful to add to this is the idea too of the diversity of the body which is a theme

[00:29:13] again in first Corinthians you know that one member of the body and now he's talking about spiritual

[00:29:17] gifts but there's a richness to the body isn't there there's a richness to who people are and

[00:29:24] this is the beautiful thing that the Lord doesn't just kind of collapse us all into the same sort

[00:29:29] of monochrome situation and that's a beautiful thing you know I mean you might have a person who

[00:29:37] just has an absolute love for nature for the environment for God's creation and they've read and

[00:29:45] they've thought about some of the implications for example of single use plastic to just kind of

[00:29:50] pick a subject here which I feel like is slightly less controversial in some of this but it

[00:29:56] made that may still be you know they say they're aware of the dynamics of what happens with when

[00:30:02] plastic bags wash in the ocean and you know fish and whales and bigger animals swallow them and die

[00:30:10] and you know so so some of these dynamics and they say you know what this is single use plastic these

[00:30:16] plastics don't buy it or grade and we want to do something about it now what does that Christian

[00:30:21] do they have strong convictions about this yeah what do they do with reference to other Christians

[00:30:28] do they decide that they're going to become the champion for this and again they they join the

[00:30:33] dots and they say every Christian should feel strongly about this because yeah this is God's creation

[00:30:38] we're talking about here and these are animals that God has made and we and Adam was and Eve were you

[00:30:44] know we're responsible in the garden to care for the garden so we should be looking after the

[00:30:48] the world which is all absolutely true by the way that's right and so they trace that that trajectory

[00:30:53] and they come to a very reasonable position that um you know a single use plastic is a bad idea

[00:31:01] yeah and maybe they decide that they're even going to petition you know certain restaurants

[00:31:06] certain locations they might even go to the government and petition them on this

[00:31:09] and and what do we say to that how do we respond to that the problem is that we feel like we've

[00:31:14] got to have an opinion on that and that person can also feel like we've got to agree with them

[00:31:20] or else and so all of a sudden it becomes this big issue between us why can't we just say that

[00:31:25] there's diversity in the body that person a has very strong views about petitioning the government

[00:31:32] with reference to abortion yeah person b has very strong views about petitioning the government when

[00:31:37] it comes to um the homeless and sex trafficking and single use plastic and and and what

[00:31:43] what what happens when all of those things start happening we can celebrate the diversity of

[00:31:48] the body and the conviction of people within the body and their own conviction of going out into

[00:31:54] the world yeah and making a difference and maybe maybe we we do interact with those people but we

[00:31:59] know feel guilty like that we're not joining that march with this particular thing and that person

[00:32:04] is not trying to make us feel guilty yeah so I think this kind of this idea of where does my own

[00:32:11] conviction lie yeah and and letting that dictate things so a passage besides first Corinthians

[00:32:18] eight to ten on the on the whole food sacrifice idols Romans 14 and 15 Paul deals with the question

[00:32:24] of certain convictions yeah and he says you know one man considers one day more important than

[00:32:30] another another man considers every day alike each one should be fully convinced in their own mind

[00:32:37] now the beautiful thing about that is Paul's not saying each one should dumb down their opinion

[00:32:41] right and not have a strong conviction right actually says it's okay you should be fully convinced

[00:32:46] in your mind so this is not about you know like being having no opinion at all on anything right

[00:32:51] so this is a neat thing again scripture teaches us he should be fully convinced in his own mind

[00:32:57] but then what should he do with reference to his brother now he's fully convinced now he's

[00:33:01] kind of charged up about every day being the alike or one day being being more important than another

[00:33:07] and this feels like a recipe for a huge explosion big take place yeah but Paul's conclusion then is

[00:33:14] each one should keep their conviction to themselves and his statement there even anticipates this whole

[00:33:20] sense of well yeah but what about the trajectory that that person might be on if right you know

[00:33:27] if everyone around me still is using single use plastic and they're they're you know contributing

[00:33:33] to the problem then what's going to happen how's this going to change you know blah blah blah we

[00:33:36] could go on Paul says to his own master he will stand or fall and he will stand for the lord is

[00:33:44] able to make him stand so there's a sense in which knowing where our own responsibility begins

[00:33:50] and ends in certain situations even situations where we have strong convictions about marginal issues

[00:33:56] the answer is that we need to leave it up to the master of that person and the master of that

[00:34:02] person is not us the master of that person is the lord yeah and that we can entrust you know so

[00:34:10] even that statement is quite powerful if you stop and think about it for a second you know to his

[00:34:14] own master who are you he says right before that to judge another man's servant yeah and so it's

[00:34:21] you're actually transgressing your boundaries in certain situations whatever they may be and we

[00:34:27] can debate you know where the boundary line lies yeah but wherever it lies there is definitely

[00:34:33] a scenario where you and I transgress the boundary by trying to dictate to another person's servant

[00:34:41] what they should do on a particular issue and they are servants of God and we are servants of God

[00:34:47] and of the Lord Jesus and so you know again Christians immediately often back away from this and say yes

[00:34:55] but this sounds like a recipe for you know just letting things run a mark and right and this sounds

[00:35:00] like a recipe for just taking our hands off the wheel and not not but hang on a second we have to push

[00:35:06] back into that passage to say that passage has to apply somewhere there has to be certain things where

[00:35:13] we leave it up to that person's master the Lord himself to convict that person and we mind our own

[00:35:19] business quite frankly on that issue and I think that would be good for listeners if they're struggling

[00:35:25] with where do the boundaries lines lie to stop and ask themselves the question where are my boundary

[00:35:31] lines already where am I giving space to other Christians and feeling like they can have their

[00:35:36] own convictions on things and if you struggle to work out any areas where you feel like that's the

[00:35:41] case then you need to be self reflective and honest and say then probably I'm not taking that

[00:35:47] passage seriously and I need to take it seriously in terms of winding things back and asking where are

[00:35:52] the positions of freedom that I allow other Christians to have yeah that's a really helpful

[00:35:58] now I know that those verses uh you know we talked about this a little bit before but

[00:36:04] it comes from a mindset sort of in the ancient world um wonder if you could help us like

[00:36:10] put it in its context yeah absolutely um there's a great and very technical uh thesis written by

[00:36:18] Clarence Glad the title in his title has got the word sycagogy and which is a wildly technical

[00:36:26] word I'm trying spelling that yeah exactly so but what he basically points out is that there was

[00:36:32] a view within philosophical schools in the ancient world that the strong among the philosophical

[00:36:39] school that is those people who kind of knew more than other people yeah it was all an intellectual

[00:36:45] thing um that the weak were those who didn't know as much and that sycagogy was about

[00:36:51] the strong having an obligation to speak into the life of the weak and to correct them and to you

[00:36:58] know even kind of yell at them and really kind of call them out yeah everything yeah and glad I

[00:37:03] used that there's strong evidence in that section and and again the church in Rome would have

[00:37:08] been well familiar and the Corinthians we know were citing with different philosophical schools so

[00:37:14] sure there's every reason to think that this this same nuance the same attitude had kind of crept

[00:37:18] into the church as a worldly attitude there's strong evidence to say that Paul even by his use of

[00:37:24] the words weak and strong yeah is actually dealing with his very issue and the conclusion he has

[00:37:29] I think is a very subversive one he's saying that's not the you know the own master you stand or

[00:37:35] fall is cutting against that idea that at a horizontal level we are obliged a hundred percent of the

[00:37:41] time to kind of decide that we are the strong brother or sister in this situation and we need to

[00:37:48] correct the weaker brother there is definitely a principle somewhere somehow a line lies where

[00:37:55] we need to mind our own business yeah and allow the Lord to work in someone else's life yeah

[00:38:00] and that can be hard yeah because we can look at that trajectory of where this is going to lead

[00:38:06] and and that can be problematic well and oftentimes we're the weaker brother

[00:38:12] in best of these cases I think we always like to think whether it's done

[00:38:18] it's the one in the strong position yeah I think this has been a really helpful conversation

[00:38:22] I think we've tackled a lot of different areas as we consider a theology of disagreement as we

[00:38:28] consider Christian liberty issues I think this is probably given people enough to sit back and digest

[00:38:35] for a week even and so you know we recommend of course always go back to the word go back look

[00:38:43] through first Corinthians and read through Romans 14 and 15 and get a sense of what do you feel

[00:38:49] like the Lord's calling you to do if you're a person who is very opinionated and you're insisting

[00:38:55] on your way on some of these issues that are liberty issues and not essential issues I think

[00:39:01] it's worth a re-evaluation and if you feel like you're a person who's a week in a week person in terms

[00:39:07] of you know you're not sure what you think on a lot of things that's okay don't feel like you need

[00:39:13] to be convinced by everybody through their argumentation you know maybe it's this is about your

[00:39:19] relationship with the Lord he is your master you need to seek his wisdom in these various areas

[00:39:26] that you face in daily life and I think I think we'll all be okay Dr. Bruce Lowe always such a pleasure

[00:39:35] to be with you thank you for such a robust helpful conversation on this issue absolutely well

[00:39:41] great to be with you again John. God bless. Candid is a podcast from leading the way with Dr.

[00:39:47] Michael Yusef don't forget to connect with our social media pages on Instagram Twitter and Facebook

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