Episode 206: Uncover Your True Identity in Christ: Melissa Kruger

[00:00:02] Culture is not what is determinative in salvation. The Holy Spirit is. If I see a problem in culture, I might be on my knees. Hello and welcome to Candid, where we never settle for less than the truth. I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef. Each week, we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions, and take a candid look at the Christian faith.

[00:00:33] Well, today my guest is Melissa Kruger. Melissa is an author, speaker, and vice president of Discipleship Programming for the Gospel Coalition. Her books include Identity Theft, Reclaiming the Truth of Who We Are in Christ, The Envy of Eve, Finding Contentment in a Covetous World, Growing Together, Taking Mentoring Beyond Small Talk and Prayer Requests, and Walking with God in a

[00:01:02] in the Season of Motherhood. And for a mom, that sounds like you've written quite a lot of books. So you've had to walk out some busy seasons. And if the last name sounds familiar, her husband Michael has been on the podcast as well. And he is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary in North Carolina. Thank you so much, Melissa, for taking the time to be with us. Oh, thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

[00:01:27] In the midst of your very busy schedule, I've introduced your professional requirements and all these sorts of things. But tell us a little bit more about who you are and connections with Gospel Coalition and such. Yeah, yeah. I live here in Charlotte, North Carolina. We've got three kids. My oldest is 22. She just graduated from Chapel Hill, which is where my husband and I went.

[00:01:50] And so my wife and my sister went there. So go heels. Go heels. That's right. So it's shocking. I think it's one thing when they go to college that feels like normal. But now when they are graduates of college, you're thinking, whoa, that's new territory.

[00:02:07] Yeah, that feels really old all of a sudden. And my son is going into his sophomore year at NC State. And he is doing engineering. She did nursing. He's doing engineering. And my youngest is still at home. She is right now taking her last exams. And she is very ready for summer. Oh, I bet. I bet. So your son is the black sheep at NC State?

[00:02:32] Yes. Well, he's actually my dad went to State. So I grew up a State fan. So we find State acceptable. If he went to Duke, that would have been unacceptable. So we do have like, if you can't do Carolina because they don't offer your major, State is an acceptable option. Duke is never okay. Yes. And for our international audience in the UK and Australia and around the world, we're talking about collegiate alliances, especially those that are in State. That's really good.

[00:03:02] I love that. So connection with Gospel Coalition. And what does that role look like, president of discipleship programming? Yeah. I mean, at this point, I'm really over two big buckets. And that's our women's team and our events team. So basically, the ministry that we have to women in local churches, and that involves a lot of different things that we're doing.

[00:03:27] We have cohorts. We have content. We are producing resources for Bible studies and different things like that. We produce books for women to use. And then on our event side, we have a national conference in September. Anyone listening, we'd love for you to be there. And we have a women's conference that's every year will be next summer in 24.

[00:03:50] So those are large events and come with a lot of pieces. So I'm kind of simultaneously over those two teams at TGC. And the goal is really in both of those. I worked editorial, which was content for many years for TGC, which is kind of what people know us for in a lot of ways is the website and that.

[00:04:14] But the things that I get to do are really bringing people together and kind of getting in their head a little longer with books and with, you know, cohorts and things like that. They're a little bit I would say if if the website is your introduction to TGC, I'm the OK, we're sitting down having coffee. Yeah, a little bit longer is a lot of the work that I'm doing, which your newest book, Growing Together, Taking Mentoring Beyond Small Talk and Prayer Requests.

[00:04:40] It's a little bit more than I think we would be used to mentorship being probably with deep intentionality, growth. Tell us a little bit about that book before we get to some of the identity stuff. Yeah, well, that book was really born out of I worked at my local church for about 10 years and I had women constantly coming to me saying, I want a mentor. I want a mentor. And then older women would say to me, I don't know what they want from me.

[00:05:07] And so I tried to create a handbook where an older woman could walk alongside a younger woman. The first two chapters are about the concept, but the book is really a handbook to use in a mentor relationship. And so it was something that was lacking. I felt like both younger women and older women knew they wanted to invest, but they didn't quite know how. And so it was a resource to connect women. I call it a springboard for conversation. It's definitely not meant to be a rule book for conversation.

[00:05:36] Right. Sure, sure. But this is a help for anyone who doesn't know how to get started. I think the best type of mentoring happens organically. But for a lot of women, they just get stuck in, let's discuss our busy lives. And it really isn't helpful. Yeah. So how do we get to meaningful, helpful conversations? Sometimes you just need a book to help you get there. Yes. Even in the Christian world, it's really hard to say, hey, can I pray for you? Without feeling like, am I the weird spiritual one in the friendship? And it shouldn't be that way.

[00:06:04] So it kind of is like, hey, but if the book tells us to do that with each other, we'll just do what she says. It normalizes it. Yes. Yes. So that's what that book was written about. I think that came out. Yeah. It came out in 2020 during the pandemic, which was fun. Yeah. When you're saying grind together and everyone has to isolate. Right. Yeah. So it's been out for a while, but I've been really pleased. So many women are using it to really meet together. And that's been a fun thing to see.

[00:06:33] I love that. Just that concept. And you're right. It's those relationships are not natural to us. It seems we tend to be very tribal and want to be with our own like and kind and age group and stage. And like you said, we all want to talk about our busy lives and what's going on. And and we need help taking a step almost down into like the depths, you know, not not in a negative sense, but into a intentional, more relational sense.

[00:07:02] I think that's really helpful. Well, your book, Identity Theft, Reclaiming the Truth of Who We Are in Christ. This was published in 2018. What was sort of the concepts that launched this? Is this out of gospel coalition? You've written this with nine other women. Walk us a little bit through sort of how that got started. Yeah. You know, it's kind of interesting. The idea actually came to being between Colin Hansen and myself. He's a co-worker.

[00:07:32] We were talking about an idea for a book for women. And, you know, I think it was really before a lot of these conversations on identity. Actually, it was more like outside of being a wife and mother. Who are we as people? Like so often I feel like a woman's identity gets wrapped up in those things which are part of what. Yeah, I'm so thankful to be a mom. I'm so thankful to be a woman.

[00:08:00] But if we back up a little bit more, the Bible tells me I'm a lot of other things, too. You know, I'm a saint. I'm beloved. The Lord's call on us, male or female, has a lot of similarities. And so this book really set to explore what does the Bible tell me who I am because I'm in Christ? And yeah, I'm glad we wrote it when we did because who knew that even— What was right around the corner.

[00:08:27] Even becoming a woman—saying you're a woman would be such a shocking statement. I mean, it was before. I mean, I know that doesn't sound that long ago, but those just weren't even in our minds when we were writing that. And so those questions have changed dramatically. And so this is just a helpful way to look at, say, what does the Bible say or who does the Bible say I am when I come to Christ? I think it's really refreshing to kind of pull off some of the cultural labels from a lot of different voices and just say,

[00:08:56] what does the Bible say is true about who we are in Christ? And that's what we were trying to do. In sort of your preparation for putting the book together, because you served as an editor, I think. It's interesting that we're talking about this as culture has shifted so dramatically in three, four years. What were some of the false notions? And I know a lot of these are from a Western mindset. But what were you finding are the notions of identity that we tend towards through the lens of the culture?

[00:09:25] What are those identities that we tend to find ourselves? I mean, you sort of talked about motherhood. But when you were starting the process of putting the book together to even like now what we see today as sort of an identity war. Yeah, I think one thing that's just really clear, and this isn't a wrong thing to say necessarily. I think we're really comfortable saying I'm a sinner or maybe I mean, I'm talking. So let me say I think some of this was to come back Christian culture. Christian culture is really confident saying I'm a sinner, I'm a sinner, I'm a sinner.

[00:09:54] And we can even wallow. You're a sinner, too. So let's all just wallow in the mud together. And where is the Bible? And when Paul writes, you know, he never writes to the same sinners in Ephesus. He never writes to the sinners in Rome. And he's getting ready to tell them all about their sin. So he does not mince words with them. But he always writes to the saints. And I think it really does matter. It's a different to be a saint who is struggling with sin and a sinner who is trying to become a saint.

[00:10:23] Those are two totally different places, identity markers where we're starting from. And so when we say, you know, I'm a saint who's having this battle, this cosmic battle with, you know, principalities and powers and the world, the flesh and the devil are coming after me. But I'm a saint. OK, so that's a battle from a place of security. And Jesus is going to win. Versus, wow, I wonder if I'm going to be good enough. I wonder if my arm is secure enough. I wonder if I can do this well enough.

[00:10:53] That's going to always be from a position of fear. And so the way you live your life, when you get those identities, it sounds so simple to say, oh, what difference does it make? It actually does make a difference. And so you start to see as you explore who does the Bible tell me I am versus who does even Christian culture or maybe my own sinfulness, like my own frustrations with myself. The lies we tell ourselves about ourselves are just as loud as what culture tells us about ourselves.

[00:11:20] And so, yeah, just exploring those ideas can really lead to some freedom. You've really struck a nerve that we've been talking about as a staff at our church, which is that position of fear versus faith. Where are you living out of? And there's so much conversation now to come back to your earlier point of the, you know, now there's identity issues over whether you're either male or female even, you know, and just sort of the craziness.

[00:11:49] But in that, there's this conversation that happens in the walls of churches about the culture war. And should we be involved in the culture war? And what does that look like? And based on what you were just saying a moment ago, what does it look like to fight, quote unquote, fight a culture war from a position of fear versus living out a faithful life from a position of security in Christ?

[00:12:18] Those are two very different things. I wonder if you could kind of help us wrestle and detangle some of that. Yeah, I think they are enormous. One, yeah, I think it was G.K. Chesterton who said that when asked the question, what's the problem with the world today? His reply was two words and it was I am or basically he himself was the problem with the world today. So I think there's a rightness as we think about the battle before us. So often we do think of it as external, this culture battle that we're having to fight.

[00:12:47] Whereas what the scripture really seems to be constantly reminding us of is the battle before us is a battle with idolatry, false belief, false things that are coming at us, false gospels that are, yeah, the gospel of money. Money is your security. Whatever you're trusting in that is not God is essentially what you need to be battling in. Doesn't mean you can't have those things. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy those things.

[00:13:14] But I think so often it's much easier to be really consumed with the culture war because honestly, we can't do anything about that. Meaning so we can find a bigger issue. Yeah. And it's this position of fear versus God is going to keep the church. He's been doing it for 2000 years. Culture is not what is determinative in salvation.

[00:13:43] The Holy Spirit is. So when I really believe that if I see a problem in culture, what am I going to do more? I'm going to be on my knees. I'm going to be praying that the Holy Spirit would work a revival because where do I think change starts? Change starts inward and moves externally versus externally and moving inwardly. We want to try to fight for laws that are good and righteous. I mean, the civil law has an impact on people. You know, it matters.

[00:14:12] I hope it's okay to say this. It matters that abortion is illegal. I know there's a lot of change. Oh, we just need to change people's hearts on certain issues. On certain issues, it is right to have a law that says stealing is wrong. It will make you think, hey, if everybody in society does think this is wrong, enough to put me in jail if I commit it. Well, then maybe I shouldn't steal or whatever. So the law has a purpose. It actually can awaken us to sin.

[00:14:41] It's not a bad thing. But what we have to realize is the real battle for us as the church. I guess here's what I really get into. What do I believe in? I don't believe in America. That doesn't mean I don't love this country. I'm so thankful I live here. All these things. I believe in the church. The church, wherever it has gone in society, wherever it has gone in the world, it has changed the culture. I believe so firmly in the church.

[00:15:10] If you want a good book, Rodney Stark has The Triumph of Christianity. And he talks about wherever Christianity went, it changed the world. So I believe in the local church. And what's the local church made of? People. Saints. Who are being transformed by the Holy Spirit. So what's my biggest role to play? To be a woman who's being transformed by the Holy Spirit. Daily in the word. Daily in prayer. The means of grace. I'm in the church. I'm being transformed by these simple means. Yeah, ordinary.

[00:15:39] That's how we change the world. And that is so unsatisfying, right? Because it doesn't seem big and bold. But I think it's the subversive nature of the gospel. It gets in. It changes hearts. And then whole worlds are changed. And that's the best news ever. Yeah, it's interesting. The apostles never seemed to be launching all their attacks on Rome or Caesar to some extent. It was missionary journeys and preaching faithfully.

[00:16:08] Yeah, you never really saw. But man, Jesus, what did he hit on? The religious leaders of the day. Right. I mean, his choicest words were for the whitewashed tombs. Yeah. And making sure that we weren't religious without being heartfelt believers. Yeah. I mean, it's always good for us to remember. You can. I mean, because the Pharisees were the best at fighting the outward battle. And they missed the inward one.

[00:16:36] And it led to no heart change. And they missed the very Messiah that they were so longing to see come. I love this. I feel like we could have this conversation for the rest of the day. But we do still see the commonality of identity placed on job performance, personality types, social networking, etc. How do Christians navigate that?

[00:17:03] I know what your answer is going to be, but I think it's helpful for us to come back to it again. How do we navigate those things? Because they can be subtle. We can say our identity is in Christ. We can have deep involvement in the church. And yet we still have this tendency towards, I am an accountant. I am a lawyer. I live in this neighborhood. My children are my identity, the school they go to, whatever it is.

[00:17:30] How would you advise Christians to navigate that terrain? How do we become introspective in asking ourselves those questions and holding them up in some sense to the light of the gospel? Yeah. And obviously, it's not bad to have those other things. I'm thankful to call myself a mom. I'm thankful to say, yeah, I work for this organization called the Gospel Coalition. I mean, those are all parts. Your answer isn't, I'm nothing, I'm no one, and I don't do anything.

[00:17:58] Nor is my answer, I'm a saint. Yeah, I don't lead with that. But I think what the scriptures point us to is what, basically, I mean, yeah, because when you hear there's neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek. Clearly, Paul isn't saying these things don't matter. Right. You're an amorphous blob or something. Exactly. And what he's saying is your preeminent identity is so encompassing of who you are is that you are in Christ, that the others are just so much less significant.

[00:18:28] So, you know, what Jesus wasn't saying when he says, you know, whoever does the will of my father in heaven, that's my mother, that's my brother. He wasn't saying he didn't have a real physical mother or a real physical brother. Yeah. He was just saying the people who are really the members of my family are my siblings, my mothers in the faith, my sons in the faith, you know, all these things. And the same is true of the Christian faith is not allowed to be your nice little handbag.

[00:18:53] And, you know, we live in the South or and it's really easy for cultural Christianity to be this little accoutrement that makes my life a little bit better. And maybe work a little edgy. Yeah. Works for my, you know, mental health. It's kind of a good thing. You know, whatever. And I'm like, no, the Christianity of the Bible is not simply intellectual affirmation to the historical Jesus. It is a belief that is so powerful.

[00:19:23] It consumes your whole life. And that's not just the people who go and be missionaries and go and be pastors. This is every Christian. It is the transforming power that you have moved from being dead to being alive. And so that transforms everything. And so I am now a Christian who is going to use the fact that let's say I'm an accountant to be on mission. So I am a Christian who's going to go into the public school classroom as a teacher on mission.

[00:19:51] You know, so that my job is simply the part in the body the Lord has given me to play for this journey until I get home. My home is heaven. My home is not Charlotte. Yeah. Like I start everything in my life just got shifted when I came to Christ. There is just no, yeah, I'm sort of dabbling. Yeah. You know, you can dabble in jobs. You know, you can. Art. Yeah. Whatever.

[00:20:21] You can dabble in good food or whatever. But you cannot dabble in Christianity. It's just not an option.

[00:20:56] Okay. I'm going to dabble in good news out of every cell of my being. So I should be a really good employee. Yeah. If you give me a task, my coworkers should be able to trust me with that. I should be a really good listener. I should see them as people, not just as coworkers. And so, you know what? If they don't do their job well. Yeah. Maybe I actually ask, hey, is everything okay? You doing okay? I just want to make sure you're okay.

[00:21:25] Because I see you as a person, not just the automaton who didn't get their work done. And yeah, I needed it. So it changes everything about even how we go into our places of work. It changes how I parent. You know, I mean, my main goal for my child is not to curate them into a perfect reflection of what the world says a well-rounded person should be. My hope for them is totally different because I'm a Christian. I want to introduce them to the greatest treasure that they'll ever know, which is Jesus. Yes.

[00:21:55] I mean, our goals shift in every area of our life when we walk in. And so we're on mission, which just means we are choosing to think about the things of heaven rather than the things of earth while living in the things of earth. Yeah. But we are heavenly minded. So we're applying what we know to be true about eternity to our daily task. And that doesn't make us inefficient. That actually makes us gloriously purposeful. Yeah. We live completely differently.

[00:22:25] Because of it. And we can't do that in isolation. That's right. We can't just watch church online and try and do those things. Some sort of like out of our own willpower. That's right. Well, I mean, we are considered members of a body and you have things that like I don't have. So that's the other thing. I'm not all sufficient. I mean, the scriptures just clearly point to that God is all sufficient. I am maybe a pinky or knee or an elbow.

[00:22:53] And if I'm not connected to the body, I actually don't work right. So the pinky isn't going to do much for you without the lifeblood of the rest of the body pumping through it. So every part is desperately needed and every part desperately needs the other parts. What are some of the cultural lies that you think we've kind of fallen for? Like the subtle ones? Yeah. So many. So many. Maybe one or two.

[00:23:22] Well, let me say what I find myself embarrassingly falling into. It's horrific. It's horrific. And I'm always bothered by it. It's I do not agree with a health wealth gospel. But goodness, every time something hard happens, I'm thinking, what did I do wrong? OK, that's against every theological thing I know to be true. But hard things happen. And immediately I'm like, either I did something wrong or God must be doing something wrong. Yeah.

[00:23:51] You know, and so what is that? That's actually a health wealth gospel when I really dig down deep. I think that's one. I think we think in the believe in the power of money a lot in our culture today. Jesus warns about it a lot. Yeah, it's warned about a lot. And I think we probably just don't take it to heart how easy it is for it to be what we're trusting in.

[00:24:20] You're like, oh, yeah, I know. I know the recession might be bad. I'm OK because I have a really good 401k. Not I'm OK because the Lord's going to take care of me. Right. It's just so easy to shift just a little bit to money. Even if he took all those things away from me. Yeah. Yeah. I still have Christ. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think there's also the mindset of man, life would be easier if we had more money. All the time. Yes. Yes.

[00:24:51] It's just subtle. And this is not for people who are particularly greedy. I mean, like I can just subtly fall into these traps, you know, and I think we all all can do that a little bit here and there. And, you know, it just exposes we don't want to really have to depend on God. I know in your book, your authors, you do identity theft, identity truth, identity transformed.

[00:25:14] What do you think are some of the aspects of our identity in Christ that are overlooked, forgotten in the life of the believer? So kind of the flip of what we just talked about, the subtle things that slip in. What are the subtle things that we ignore, perhaps don't pay much attention to or, you know, could benefit from putting some focus on or thinking about? Yeah, that's a good question.

[00:25:40] And I honestly think if we could really believe in the father's love for us, it would be transformative. And I know that sounds like such a, you know, we sing it all the time. How great the father's love. Yeah, we sing it all the time. We know it, but we don't live in it. I think we often live with this deep, deep seated fear that maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe I'm not enough. Rather than just believing, no, he has set his love upon me.

[00:26:10] I am deeply loved, deeply secure in that love. That love can never be taken from me. It really is transformative to live in light of being loved rather than feeling like, you know, you're trying to beg someone to pay attention to you. But that he loved us so much that he actually, before the foundation of the world, claimed us as his own.

[00:26:33] That Christ left heaven, took on the form of a human, entered into all the suffering of this world. So that he might come and live a perfect life and then die a horrific death so that he might take on the wrath that we deserve. I mean, that's the question. And we're still looking at him and kind of saying, are you sure you love me? But that's what he did for you. That's what he did for me. And it's like repeating that to ourselves over and over again.

[00:27:02] No, this is how much he loves me. This is how much he loves me. It's been proven. And that goes back to what we talked about near the beginning. Positional, leading out of a fear, understanding, a doubt, doubting position, a feeling of we need to earn it back. You know, we're still in the garden trying to get back in versus a positional, it's been done, now live out of that.

[00:27:31] I think that that certainly rings true. So kind of in some sense coming back to the culture war issue, it seems to be split a little bit across generational lines, especially in the area of politics, where older and younger generations just seem incapable of having the same conversation.

[00:27:55] I don't know if that's an issue of terminology, a poor definition of terms, but the sad thing is that the divide exists even in churches, often case. So I wonder if we could kind of talk about that in terms of identity and what we allow to be sort of a predominant theme or a loud voice in the room that is miscommunicated across generational lines.

[00:28:22] Have you thought anything, you know, down that perspective or seen it even in your, you know, in your own family or your own church? Yeah, I think in some ways, maybe it's a discipleship issue. In some ways, what voices are we allowed listening to more often? And so to me, I haven't seen it as much in the generational as I have who is listening to news shows versus who is in their Bible.

[00:28:51] If you give me a person who's in their Bible an hour a day and a person who's listening to news shows and podcasts constantly, I think we're going to have a very different conversation with them. Yeah, unless it's this podcast, but... That's true. That's true. Yes, that's true. And so the Bible, yeah, I mean, God's very clear. He's like, don't fear those who can kill the body. It's like fear, but it does tell us to fear.

[00:29:19] And it tells us over and over to fear. And it's always fear God and keep his commandments. So I am to have fear. It's not like it's absent in the life of a believer. I just need to make sure I'm fearing the right thing. And it says time and time again, don't fear the circumstances. Like every time, all throughout the Old Testament, when the Israelites are up against people who are way too big for them, way too big. They're like, we look like grasshoppers in their eyes. He says, fear not, for I am with you.

[00:29:47] So what God never says is there aren't things to fear. So I can actually look at culture and be like, yeah, this could get really bad for Christians. I'm not without like soberness saying my husband might be put in jail for what he preaches. Yes. But what I do is I say, and God will be with me and God will be with me. So which is more important, which fear? You know, I'm going to fear not the circumstances, but I'm going to fear the God who's ordaining all circumstances.

[00:30:16] I'm going to trust that whatever circumstances he brings are going to be for the good of his church and his people ultimately. And that's a reality. So, again, it just changes maybe how we look at the circumstances. Because if we look at them too big, we're going to be like the Israelites who constantly gave way to their fear and acted in ungodly manner.

[00:30:36] So if we, we will soon sacrifice a fear of God if we're constantly fearing man, because we're going to turn to our own devices and we're going to look to ourselves. And that's going to go badly for us. We're going to be, you know, as Aaron said, oh, I put the gold in and I'll pop the golden calf. That's amazing. But it was, they were fearful. They're like, where's that guy Moses? He left us. So now we need a God. We need a God.

[00:31:02] And so when we're not fearing the right things, when we're not fearing God and trying to honor him and keep his commandments, we're going to allow other gods. Well, and that's our culture today, right? It's sort of trust your heart, believe in yourself. Every time I hear that, I just think, no, don't. Please stop it. Your heart is wicked. It will not make a good choice. And if it does, it's by God's grace.

[00:31:29] I wonder if we can shift just slightly here, because I know you write about motherhood and just thinking about identity as it relates to children. It seems that rather than receiving an identity, kids are often sort of pressured to create one for themselves. You know, in this day and age, how do we help curb against what culture trying to do?

[00:31:53] Especially in this very strange day and age where transgender ideology and everything and sexual orientation is the primary identity that's being espoused to young, very young children who are not even shouldn't even be thinking about sexuality. What are the things you're seeing? Yeah, it is. There are disturbing things, just as we talked about. There are definitely just wrong things being introduced to children way too early.

[00:32:23] I mean, so there is that. Way too early. I actually have just finished. I turned in a book in April. It's called Parenting with Hope, Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age. So it's on this very concept of how do we parent in a secular culture? And, you know, here's some encouragement. Maybe it's discouraging, but it's meant to be encouraging.

[00:32:43] Um, the studies show, and I did a ton of research for this book, the greatest impact on shaping our kids' religious formation is not their culture. It is not their peer group. It is not their school. It is their parents. So that is both hopeful and terrifying at the same time. Yeah. But it was a really interesting book. There's a book called Handing Down the Faith. It was a research of, and it wasn't just Christian.

[00:33:11] It was, you know, they looked at Mormon. They looked at Jewish families. They looked at Muslim families. The question of how is faith transmitted from one generation to the next? And the primary impactors are the parents. So here's the reality. What that means is we cannot fake our Christianity. Because the other thing the study definitely showed, if there were signs of disunity between what was happening at the religious service and what was happening in the home, the transmission of faith was very unlikely.

[00:33:42] So putting on a mask. Yeah. Yeah. So the faith that is being lived in the home is going to be more determinative than the church you are in as what is being passed down from one generation to the next. And it is definitely sobering. I mean, you just look. But at the same time, again, it means the battle is not culture. The battle is us fighting our idolatries and understanding we are the primary shaper of their identity.

[00:34:11] And if my goal is to make you into a little image of me, I am going to do my children such a disservice. Rather than raising them from the time they are little to be like, you are made in the image of God. And your goal here, your whole thing in life is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And then I get to journey with them uncovering how are you made? You know, what gifts has God given you?

[00:34:38] And watching God develop those rather than me trying to make my child fulfill the family's legacy of the football player or the high academic achiever or, you know, the social life or whatever. I actually think the idols that are killing our kids are not sex, drugs, and rock and roll. I think the idols that are killing them are scholastic achievement, social acceptance, and sports. Athletic achievement. Yeah.

[00:35:09] Yeah. Because what's keeping our kids out of church? It's sports. It's not the boogeyman. It's sports. We just have to do an honest assessment with what we are training our kids for as parents. Oof. Well. Yeah. I'll just put that idol. The death blow. So let's blow that up. It's funny.

[00:35:29] As you say that, I can't help but think if we're talking about what is being lived out at the religious institution versus what's being lived out in the home. And I just thought, what about the parent who is constantly fighting the culture war versus what that parent is like at home?

[00:35:49] So that parent is beloved by the church community because they are an advocate and they're constantly putting before everyone. You know, did you hear what Target has done? Have you heard about the Bud Light campaign? And everyone's like, man, they're a warrior on our behalf.

[00:36:10] But then that family, those children see that mom or dad or whoever it is at home who's very different than, you know, I don't know. It's, you know, even that, not necessarily what they are at church. But what are the characteristics that mom and dad are showing? Or even in that moment. Grace and faith. Yeah. Are they seeing judgment and anger directed or are they seeing a compassion for the lost?

[00:36:39] Like it's totally, you can have one person looking at the Target fiasco saying these despicable human beings. I can't believe. Yes. We're never shoving there. Going to the lake of fire. We're another family making the exact same decision. But here's how it, you know what? We're really disturbed by some of the things Target's putting out right now. And there are a lot of lost people out there.

[00:37:04] And we're not going to support them because we actually think they're encouraging lost people to, in ways that will only harm and lead to a lack of human flourishing. Yeah. Like, but it's said with compassion. So we want to support places that are actually going to help people find good news and good things. And this, yeah. So there's a real difference in even the humility. Here's the thing.

[00:37:33] When I realized I was dead and the Lord turned the lights on for me. How can I sit in judgment over someone who's still dead? And such were some of you. I mean, I'm alive because of the grace of God. So I am going to. They can't wake themselves up. Yes. And so what I'm not going to do, I'm not going to judge them for their deadness, but I'm also not going to say it's okay. Right. Yeah. You know, I mean. There's an important difference between. Yeah.

[00:38:03] Yeah. I'm going to be just as disturbed by the deadness. But I'm going to understand the solution to life is not coming and beating the dead body. Right. That doesn't help the dead body or the other living bodies watching it. No. Rather than begging the Lord to change our culture. I mean, like to me, this is a spiritual battle that can only.

[00:38:26] We can as Christians do things together to rightly say, hey, we don't want certain laws. We don't want things. I'm not against. We live in a country where we have the right to vote. We should use our votes well. But we just shouldn't believe that it's culture's job to change hearts. That's the church's. The church's mission is to go out with the good news of the gospel. And that's how hearts are going to change.

[00:38:54] Well, it seems historically, even when the culture is shifted in that direction, you know, to a sort of affirming Christian worldview, then people end up in nominalism because they're sort of when they talk about how the South is haunted by the ghost of Christ. Right. It's like, oh, I went to church.

[00:39:12] I think it becomes sort of a works righteousness thing and or some sort of family heritage thing that's just passed on to you versus what you described. You know, that we were dead in our sins and trespasses and that the Lord is the one who raised us to new life. I know you've done conversations around since we're kind of in this ballpark. You've done conversations around education.

[00:39:37] And I think that that that comes into play here because you sort of mentioned that holding down the faith that the primary impactors are the parents, particularly the life at home. But this is, you know, a battle that constantly rages in different parts of the U.S. and probably even the world education opportunities where at times it can feel like it's getting more and more.

[00:40:05] I want to be balanced here because I am aware that there are a lot of problems and a lot of things that we need to know about that's coming across through education, particularly in public school systems, as well as some of the private school systems as well. Sort of DEI type things, very pro LGBTQIA.

[00:40:27] But it feels like some of the school things are getting so restrictive that it's really small classes of super covenantal families. And I'm curious your thoughts on on some of that. Yeah. My first thought is it's all so complicated. And so anything I ever see on schooling, I want to always say with a grain of let us be gracious to one another in these decisions, because every parent is walking through decisions with different factors.

[00:40:56] Some can't afford private school. Some don't have the resources to homeschool or even I want to say the right disposition. I mean, you know, it's just it's not a healthy situation for some people. And then, you know, you've got public schools that are extremely concerning to me. I was a public school teacher. I taught high school math in a large public high school. And this was 30 years ago now, I guess. It was a while ago.

[00:41:25] Maybe, maybe, maybe more like 25. But it was it was already then, you know, there was just a lot going on with kids and it's only grown. And I taught a very safe subject. I taught math. So the good thing about teaching math, my subject doesn't isn't open to a lot of interpretations. So it's it's people will find a way to get it in there. Yeah. Right now, three plus three still equals six. So we're we're still we're still there. So that that's good news.

[00:41:56] But, you know, even teaching grammar rules would be complicated right now. So I really have a lot of sympathy for people who decide I can't be here anymore. For sure. And they're unwilling to put their kids there because we have laws changing in such a way that it can actually interrupt the parents choices in what I'm talking about by the time they get to high school.

[00:42:18] You know, we have some really strange things that can happen when I remember the first time I went with my daughter to the doctor's office and she was, I think, 13. And they turned to her and they said, does your mother have permission to be in the room with you? Yeah. You know, so when my 13 year old confusingly said, yeah, yeah. But like the reason for that at the time, I'm pretty sure it was sexual activity.

[00:42:45] Like they want to they want her to know who wants to get the pill. She can get the pill. She wants to have an abortion. She can have an abortion. Yeah. Like it was now it would probably be if you want to discuss gender reassignment surgery. We're open to that. So so the reality is that there are these agendas can separate your ability to be there and know what's going on with your child. That's very disturbing to me, you know, as a parent. So we actually chose Christian school.

[00:43:14] And I would say I mean, we loved it. I mean, it was a great place for our family to be. I was thankful for it. Part of it for me was actually the size of our public school system. Like I think my my elementary school, the kindergarten had six kindergartens. Yeah. So I just prefer a class like three kindergarten classes, maybe where you actually might know someone the next year in your grade.

[00:43:41] And so I was watching those type of dynamics lead to then huge middle schools and then huge public high schools. Yeah. But I know I have tons of friends who put their kids in public school and their kids are walking with the Lord. Like and I see kids in private Christian school who are not walking with the Lord. And I see kids in private Christian school whose parents do not go to church. I see it all the time. Yeah. I mean, there is. Yeah.

[00:44:08] Like, again, so I see that dynamic of what's happening in the home is primary. But we do have to wrestle with what's happening in the school system is not neutral. And that's a reality we all have to wrestle with. And I think we have to wrestle with it as a Christian culture. Like, how can we help people who can't afford private school, but their kid really needs it?

[00:44:32] Like, can we come together and support some kids, you know, and or maybe can we all go into this one public school together and like try to do the best of a movement? Yeah. I don't know. But we or maybe even as a Christian school family, I choose to be on the school board and I choose to really be involved in what's happening in my public school, even though my kids aren't there because I believe it matters.

[00:45:00] So I think we've got to have those conversations. And it's difficult because, man, there's no talk about cultural idols. How you choose to school your children is very tender. To a lot of people. And so I think the first place we start is by being really my choice is not a judgment on your choice. Right. Exactly. Your choice is not a judgment on my choice.

[00:45:25] But I think we have to acknowledge what's happening in the public school system is attempting to indoctrinate our children. Yeah. And that's a reality. And so we're going to have to do battle against that. For years to come. Yeah. With Gospel Coalition, we've heard the sad news of the passing of Dr. Tim Keller and how sort of team at Gospel Coalition managing with that. He was such a great gospel force for so long.

[00:45:55] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Colin and I, we just did a podcast on Monday about his death. And it really affects us all. You know, I mean, he really embodied what we are trying to do in so many ways. And I think his was the vision that so many of us said, yes, you know, we want to have a reasonable answer to give for the hope that is in us.

[00:46:21] So, you know, we really hope to continue that work through the Gospel Coalition, through there's a Keller Center for Apologetics that just began this year. Really trying to ask the constant question, how do we reach a culture that is not walking with God, that is running from God? How do we reach them with the message of the Gospel in a way that they can hear? Like, you know, what can we do to reach them?

[00:46:48] How can we get these Gospel truths into our conversations with people? Like, how can we be creative about that? How can we do that? And Lord willing, that will continue. That's our hope. But we will, I think, all miss, whether it's Tim's books, whether it's Tim's tweets, or whether it's Tim's presence, I think we will all miss just him being there to guide and to offer wisdom. Yeah. To the next generation.

[00:47:18] Well, Melissa Kruger, this has been such a joy. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. Again, we're going to put links for your conferences. I'm going to ask that we get those on our show notes and your books, Identity Theft, Reclaiming the Truth of Who We Are in Christ, and Growing Together, Taking Mentoring Beyond Small Talk and Prayer Requests. Melissa, thank you so much for being on Candid Conversations. Great. Thanks for having me. It's been great to chat.

[00:47:47] Candid is a podcast from Leading the Way with Dr. Michael Youssef. Don't forget to connect with our social media pages on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. And subscribe to Candid Conversations on your favorite podcast platform so that you never miss an episode. While there, please leave a review. It does help people to find us. As always, thank you for listening to and sharing this episode.