Episode 204: Candid Favorites: Understanding Progressive Christianity: Alisa Childers

[00:00:06] Hello and welcome to Candid, where we never settle for less than the truth. I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef. Each week, we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions, and take a candid look at the Christian faith. This month, the Candid production team is taking over the podcast to share their favorite episodes as we hit our 200th episode milestone. Here's the team.

[00:00:32] Hey, we're the Candid team and it's our 200th episode. Can't believe we've made it this far. Can you all? Wow. No. When we did 100, wasn't it Jonathan who said like, oh, and for the next 100? And we were like, the next 100. That's so true. We call it feeding the machine. But we wanted to give you kind of a behind the scenes tour of how things work here at Candid. We help support Jonathan.

[00:01:00] And this podcast. And we all get together and brainstorm and help make this thing happen with the Lord's help. And we're sharing each our favorite episode. I'm Lauren. I'm Faith. I'm Bethany. I'm Autumn Thomason. And I help with promotion of Candid and, you know, the occasional topic or guest. And one of my favorite episodes is the Alisa Childers episode on progressive Christianity.

[00:01:26] And what I love about Alisa's story is that she shares on her journey of doubt how that led her to a stronger faith. And I love that because maybe in previous generations, you know, there's sometimes been more of a hesitation of asking those really hard questions about our faith and about the Bible. And in her story, that's really what led her to have an even stronger faith in Christ than she did before.

[00:01:53] And, you know, in a previous 200th episode, Bethany was sharing how Laura Perry's episode encouraged her in her parenting. And I kind of feel the same way. You know, she talks about how she wants to create a safe place for her kids to share any question they have, any doubt that they have. And there's just power in knowing that God can handle our questions. And not only that, but his truth is strong enough to stand up to our questions and there are answers to our questions.

[00:02:21] And I think the other thing about this episode is that progressive Christianity really is like the challenge of our Gen Z and millennial generation. And basically, you know, it's hard to define. And Jonathan and Elisa do a good job kind of pinpointing what it is. But it's just kind of this idea that if you have good enough intentions, if you, you know, feel good about Jesus, then basically you're a Christian. And I don't mean to simplify it too much, but it kind of reduces the authority of Scripture.

[00:02:51] It avoids some of the hard teaching or teaching about sin or the need for the cross. It redefines historic doctrine. And it kind of becomes more of a self-help thing than it is about the actual gospel. But it's really alluring and it's really sneaky because who doesn't want to be inclusive and who doesn't want to be welcoming of others? And, of course, we know Christ is welcoming of others. He's welcoming of all who will come and repent of their sin.

[00:03:17] And I think just seeing the way that this has taken such a stronghold in our culture, she just does a really good job in this episode of laying out what it is, how you can spot it, and why we have a reason for our faith. I think the other thing that she touches on is that in our culture, the new core value is like uncertainty. Like it's to be confident in something is to be arrogant. And to be uncertain is to be open-minded.

[00:03:47] And, you know, to be honest and authentic is the best thing we can be. And there is a place for honesty and authenticity in our faith, but not at the expense of truth. And I just love the way that in her story and in her books and in her conversation with Jonathan that she takes away the shame we can have of having confidence in Christ. And, you know, the Bible says that faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance of what we don't see.

[00:04:16] It's not blind hope and we don't really know anything. It's actually like we can be confident because there's proof and we can be confident there's evidence. And we can be confident because our faith is reality. So that's why I really love this episode. One of the things, shameless plug here, faith, I do our social media along with the help of everyone here. We created this graphic because after, I think Autumn had mentioned it specifically, at least it goes through the red flags of progressive Christianity.

[00:04:46] That graphic will be available on our social media pages. You can find those handles, candid conversations with Jonathan Yusuf. Anyway, but that was really helpful because it's like in that graphic, it lays out what Elisa says. These are red flags to look for. So if you're not sure, you're like, what kind of environment am I in? Check out that graphic because it's really, really helpful. And that was something that stood out to me is how clearly she laid those red flags out. Yeah, I agree. I think that's so helpful.

[00:05:14] And I will say it was even really helpful in me because I also work for Church of the Apostles in the 20s and 30s ministry. So as this progressive movement has been coming, this word of deconstruction, we actually did have a girl in 20s and 30s. And I was like, where is so-and-so? Why isn't she here anymore? And then, well, she's deconstructed. And I was like, wait, what? What does this mean? You know?

[00:05:39] And so then when Elisa came out with her book, Diving In More, this interview with Jonathan, I was like, wow, this is deeper than I thought. You know, like this is happening in our culture in the 20s and 30s and they're experiencing this. And how can we help come alongside them and educate them of what this is and, like you said, these red flags to look for. So that was really helpful to me. I love that. It is. And, you know, we had talked a lot about Alyssa Childress before she came on the program.

[00:06:09] She would often be in our discussions, things that she had said. So she was a very familiar person to everyone on the team. So I think we were excited to have this conversation and Jonathan to have this conversation. We feel like we're all having the conversation, by the way. But one of the things I wanted to share about is this is re-air. These are re-airs of episodes that we've already aired. And I know that on my favorite podcast sometimes when a re-air comes up, I'm like, oh, I already listened to this.

[00:06:36] But what's really interesting is that we get actually more listens to the re-airs of episodes a lot of times because our audience grows or people are at different points in their lives when we re-air the episode. And maybe they didn't need to know anything about that at the moment and didn't listen to that episode. So we thank you to our committed listeners for being patient with us as we re-air some episodes. They are resonating with people. So that's a fun thing that we get to do is watch something that has been created, you know, earlier.

[00:07:05] And we have it available right when that topic needs to be shared. So I hope as you listen to this episode with Elisa Childers on progressive Christianity and her conversation with Jonathan, that you are encouraged that your questions are safe with God and his truth is stronger than you can even know. That the questions you have, more often than not, they will lead to answers. And yeah, faith is confidence in what we hope for and we can have confidence in what we hope for. So without further ado, enjoy this episode of Candid Conversations.

[00:07:36] If you're taking the atonement away, you're taking any kind of sin separation from a holy God away, what is their gospel? Well, this is where progressive Christianity is really characterized not so much about what you believe, but about what you do. Progressive Christianity, deconstruction. We're hearing these terms more regularly as some Christian leaders walk away from biblical orthodoxy. But what is the impact of redefining the gospel?

[00:08:06] In today's episode of Candid Conversations, I welcome Elisa Childers, whose new book, Another Gospel, is a helpful guide to unpacking and understanding progressive Christianity. You may know Elisa Childers from her widely read apologetics blog, elisachilders.com, or her popular podcast, the Elisa Childers Podcast, or you may remember her as a part of the Christian band Zoe Girl. Elisa Childers

[00:08:43] Did she have to operate on blind faith, or could she have an intellectually informed faith? Elisa and I discussed this season in her life and her journey from faith to deconstruction to reconstruction. This conversation is eye-opening, educational, and encouraging to those searching for answers about the Christian faith. Come join the conversation.

[00:09:10] Well, Elisa Childers, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on Candid Conversations. Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, it is my honor. I'm so glad to be here. Elisa, for those who maybe aren't familiar with your work, your book, Another Gospel, your blog posts, your website, you have a podcast as well. I wonder if you could just introduce us a little bit to yourself. Maybe just tell us a little bit of your story. Yeah, well, thanks for that. So I have, like you mentioned, a podcast and a blog.

[00:09:40] I've just written a book. And most of my work surrounds this topic of progressive Christianity and what is it? How do we answer it biblically? Where are we seeing it? Who are the key players? And so I've been sort of focusing my attention on that, not just because I woke up one day and decided to study progressive Christianity, but actually because it's a really big part of my own story. And so I grew up in a Christian home, had wonderful Christian parents.

[00:10:06] In fact, I loved and followed Jesus as far back as I can remember. I don't actually even remember a time when I wasn't aware of Jesus, when I didn't know deep in my heart that the Bible was His Word, that I could trust it, that I could live my life by it, that it was God's Word. I probably couldn't have told you why I thought that. I couldn't have given you an intellectual reason, but I just knew that it was true.

[00:10:30] And so I think because I had a fairly good experience with the church growing up, I never really experienced intellectual doubts about my faith, really, until I was an adult. And so I had spent some time in the Christian music industry. And after that came to a close, my husband and I were invited to a local church where I was going to be doing some music, and we just fell in love with this church. And we started attending there.

[00:10:59] So I'd been touring for so many years, and sadly, I had really lost touch with the local church. I think that's one of the reasons I was kind of vulnerable to not spotting some of these things when I was in this other church. But we attended there for about eight months when the pastor invited me to be a part of a smaller—he called it like a discussion study group. And it was in the context of that group that he revealed to us that he was actually an agnostic,

[00:11:26] which really surprised me because on Sunday mornings, he was giving these sermons that sounded really good. They had tons of Scripture. In fact, he used more Scripture in his sermons than I had ever even heard. And so that really surprised me. But what I didn't realize at the time was that he was in this process of deconstruction, which we're all hearing that word. And it's basically just when a Christian goes through this process of all of—everything they've ever believed just gets kind of picked apart and explained away.

[00:11:56] And so all of the classes that we would have in this discussion group were really from a skeptical position. So we were reading books, we were discussing them, and each week would be a different topic, like the reliability of the Bible. Only the arguments being brought weren't like, here's why we can trust the Bible, here's why we probably can't trust the Bible. Right. And so, long story short, this threw me into a really intense time of doubt and deconstruction

[00:12:25] and cried out to God. And God brought some amazing apologetics ministries across my path. And essentially, God used apologetics and really not just that, but studying systematic theology for the first time and church history and all kinds of things, philosophy, all kinds of things, and rebuilt my faith. And we can drill down on that in that story, whatever you'd like, but that's kind of the general story. So that church that I was at went on to identify itself as a progressive Christian community.

[00:12:55] And that's the first time I heard that phrase. And I was like, oh, that's what that was. And so, now this was years later after I had studied and I was satisfied in my own faith, but I began to read their books, the progressive Christian books, and sort of try to analyze this movement as a whole. What do they believe? And how does this contradict what I kind of call historic Christianity? And how can we answer it? And so, that's why I wrote the book. Let's start with your upbringing.

[00:13:24] So, the church that you grew up in, what did that look like? You know, you've kind of talked about, you know, you had the appreciation for the Bible. You know, you love Jesus. But what would like a typical sermon have sounded like on a Sunday for you? Yeah, good question. So, I went to the kind of church where the sermons were very, like, Bible-focused, lots of Scripture. Of course, I was a kid, so it's hard to think back and go, well, I don't know how biblical it all was. It was on the charismatic side of things.

[00:13:56] Not the kind of, like, super hyper-charismatic that I've encountered since then. Like, nobody was falling down or, you know, that kind of stuff. Lots of hymns. And so, I definitely got the gospel. When my faith reconstructed, I ended up sort of realizing, like, hey, I actually don't think this particular belief I had was biblical. And so, I made some tweaks like that. But the gospel was there. I was given the real gospel, the atonement, the physical resurrection of Jesus.

[00:14:25] And so, I'm really thankful for that. And I had very genuine Christian parents, too. They not only gave me the gospel, but being a Christian meant it wasn't just going to church on Sunday. We did Bible studies together. We prayed together. My parents served the homeless. It was a lifestyle. Yeah, it was our life. And even, you know, when my parents would blow it, they would repent to us and in front of us. And so, there was just this real authentic Christianity that was modeled for me.

[00:14:54] And I'm really thankful for that because when I look back at the class that I was in, when everybody around me was deconstructing, basically, I looked around and every single one of them had had some really horrible experience with the church in some way. And I just remember thinking, like, I don't want this to not be true. I want this to be true because I believe it and I think the gospel is beautiful. And I was looking around and other people in the class, they didn't think the gospel was beautiful. And there were lots of reasons for that.

[00:15:23] But so, I am thankful for the upbringing that I did have. Very thankful for it. Well, and I think it touches on the issue of foundations. And I think you've, in some of your research on the progressive movement, you've probably found it's the people who have had some sort of foundation laid at an early age that are actually coming out, able to come out of that movement versus those, as you described,

[00:15:52] that maybe had a tragic experience with church or someone connected with the church who then, I think you said it well, it's almost like they don't want the gospel to be true or beautiful. And so, then they're happy to go down that, whatever the trail is that these progressive leaders are taking them down. Yeah. And actually, interestingly, it's sort of like this snowball that I've seen accelerate over even just the past couple of years.

[00:16:21] Because maybe three or four years ago, you might see somebody come out and say, I'm not a Christian anymore, or I had all these questions, and I'm deconstructing. And they might say it, and then somebody else might say it. Then you started to see these stories become celebrated, people praising them for sharing their journey of deconstruction. And then fast forward to today, I mean, I've noticed just even in the last few months, all

[00:16:46] of these websites and even psychological, you know, like psychologists and Instagram pages saying, hey, we're here to facilitate your deconstruction. Like, we're going to, we can help you deconstruct if that's what you want to do. And we'll walk you through it. We'll tell you how to do it. And it's amazing how it's almost become a culture. But what's interesting about deconstruction is that, like you mentioned, it's people walking away from something.

[00:17:15] And that's the thing that makes the movement of progressive Christianity so unique in that, I mean, I would say, just to be generous, I would say 99% of progressive Christians are deconverted evangelicals. So, these are people who are leaving the church for whether it could be like a legitimate, more legitimate reason, like they encountered abuse or hypocrisy or something like that. So, just good old-fashioned rebellion.

[00:17:42] Like, I don't want to have to live the way that people are telling me I have to live. I don't want to have to live up to that standard. The way that people are telling me how to live versus what God tells me how to live. Well, they don't want to do that either. I don't want to read the Bible either. Yeah. Well, and it goes back to kind of the age-old issue of this sort of anthropocentric model of man is at the center. Yeah. So, when bad things happen, it's, you know, man is good, inherently good.

[00:18:12] And so, there's something to do with either a divine intervention. And then when you get tired of defending that or trying to explain that away, you eventually end up in atheism. And I think it sounds like a lot of your research has kind of showed that trajectory from progressive Christianity ultimately ends up in a sort of atheistic worldview. Mm-hmm. And it really does. And this is something I've gotten quite a bit of pushback about because I have written

[00:18:37] about the idea that a lot of the claims that atheists are making are very similar or the same as the ones progressive Christians are making. And then I reference Bart Campolo, who is, if people know who Tony Campolo is, kind of famous evangelistic guy from more than the 80s and 90s. But he's really a progressive Christian today. But his son, Bart Campolo, started deconstructing and basically just said, look, if I don't believe

[00:19:04] in the resurrection anymore, if I don't believe in the atonement, like, I might as well just call myself what I really am. And so he identified himself as a secular humanist. And so I wrote an article kind of highlighting some of the similarities and the trajectory that progressive Christianity will take you on. And interestingly, a lot of progressive Christians pushed back on it. But I also got a lot of emails and comments from atheists saying, spot on, that's exactly what happened with me. Someone at the end of the spectrum. Yeah.

[00:19:34] I want to come back to your experience and your story. Maybe take us through a little bit of the mental, the spiritual, the emotional process of that sort of deconstruction, and then maybe through the reconstruction as well. What were some of the things that were unsettling those foundations that you had from youth? Well, the biggest one was the Bible, because like I mentioned, my parents did a lot of homeless ministry. We did street evangelism with my dad.

[00:20:03] So it was not uncommon for us to go down to Hollywood Boulevard and witness to people and pass out tracts and share the gospel. So, I mean, it's not like I never met an atheist growing up. If you go do street ministry on Hollywood Boulevard, you're going to meet some very interesting people, Satanists, all kinds of people. And so, I mean, I encountered atheists who would say this stuff, but it was so easy to brush that aside because I had my Bible. And I was like, well, the Bible says this, and they just don't get it yet.

[00:20:32] One day they'll come around or the Holy Spirit will do something in their heart, and they'll come to realize the Bible is true. So it was very easy to brush that aside. But when I was in this situation with this class, and I was like stuck, I couldn't really go anywhere. And I kind of already had a rapport with this pastor. I respected him. So I was very confused about what was happening because I thought, is he just like trying to see if we can spot deception? Or what is this?

[00:21:01] You know, it was very confusing. But he was able intellectually to sort of knock the legs out from under the Bible. And when that happened intellectually, that's when the deconstruction started because I just thought if the Bible's not true, what are we all doing here? You know, so it's like for a lot of people, deconstruction, it'll go through a process of the Bible and then they think about hell or something. For me, it was just like if the Bible's not true. What's the point of it all? I'm doomed.

[00:21:32] And so that was the biggest one for me. And so that's when I started asking questions like, okay, so this pastor says that all the people who wrote the books that we think wrote them probably didn't really write them. The people who were claimed to be eyewitnesses probably weren't. It was probably written much later by people who weren't even there. The manuscripts we have, they're probably not even accurate because there's all these mistakes and contradictions. And so it was questions like that that I really wrestled through first.

[00:22:01] We know that it sort of starts with a tremor and that it eventually kind of works its way out into more practical things in your life. So how did those questions and doubts then start to formulate, you know, your worldview at that point? How they affected my worldview? I had based my entire worldview, my entire just belief system, everything on the Bible. I loved the Bible. I read the entire Bible by the time I was 12.

[00:22:30] I think, I want to be honest, I think there were a few sections of numbers I skipped. But I mean, I really loved the Bible and it was alive to me. I mean, it wasn't boring to me. Nothing about it troubled me. I never came across a passage where I was like, ew, what's that about? I just, man, when David rode out into battle, I was cheering him on. You know, it was just like nothing bothered me. I loved the Word of God. And so, you know, and I've heard actually people who have gone through deconstruction talk about the terror of deconstruction.

[00:22:57] It's terrifying because you've built your entire worldview on this one particular thing. And so, I wanted to fight for it. I didn't want to discard the Bible. And so, that was something that was really big was the Bible. Also, just when I started thinking, okay, if the Bible's not true, then how could we possibly even know if God exists? I mean, how could that even be something knowable?

[00:23:26] And so, I think that if I would have given up on the Bible, I probably would have landed in some kind of agnosticism. I don't think I'd ever go full atheist, but I mean, I've probably just been like, I don't know, but I hope it's all going to be okay. But so, I realized also, and this is probably a good thing that I realized, growing up in the environment that I did, I didn't get a lot of intellectual support for my beliefs.

[00:23:53] It was very much a feelings-based belief, if I'm honest. You know, like every time, oh my gosh, youth group and the worship, and it's like you feel the goosebumps and all that stuff. And so, that was really my proof, I realized. I didn't realize that then. It was your ultimate authority. That was my ultimate authority, was that I could feel, you know, what I identified as the presence of God. And so, in the class, when the pastor was able to persuade me, because I had to be honest

[00:24:20] with myself, when he was able to persuade me, like, you know, you can get that same feeling when you look at a great piece of art or hear a secular song. And you know what? I remembered when he said that, when I was 12 years old and I heard the Beatles, Let It Be. And I felt this wash of, like this- Emotion. Transcendent, yeah, like this transcendent feeling. And can I really tell the difference between that and what I experienced in the worship services?

[00:24:50] And if I was really honest, that was like the big pillar of my worldview, because I always based what I believed on what I felt. Now, I don't want to make it sound like it was shallow. It wasn't feelings-based in that I was just looking for an emotional high. You know, the Holy Spirit was at work in my life. I watched the gospel transform the lives of people.

[00:25:15] I had a deep faith, but it just wasn't intellectually informed in the sense that I could tell you reasonably why I believed these things. And so, all I had were those transcendent experiences. And this is so interesting, too. There was a dialogue. I mentioned Bart Campolo, and there was a dialogue between him and Sean McDowell, and they were talking about what informed their faith to begin with. And it's amazing how, you know, Bart says, oh, it's this transcendent experience.

[00:25:42] I went to this youth camp, and I got the feels, and then I realized I could feel that anywhere. And then I think people just kind of connect those transcendent experiences with whether they want to be true. Whereas Sean was saying, well, you know, I went through some doubt, and I tested my beliefs against evidence and against truth. And I realized that whether I feel it or not, it's true. And that really spoke to me, too. Of course, that was after my reconstruction. But that's what I came to as well, is like, okay, I know that I'm okay on the feeling side of things.

[00:26:11] I have no problem with the feelings and connecting, you know, in that sense. But I need to know if this is true intellectually in reality. And so, that's what really sent me on that more intellectual journey. So, yeah. Do you think that that is a problem within the church as a whole, that we tend to build things on what is easy, which is an experiential transcendent? Again, it's just an experience. Because who can question an experience, right?

[00:26:40] It's unique to you. But there has to be, you know, they talk about ultimate authority. I mean, it's either, as a friend of mine says, it's either the BRI model, Bible, reason, institution, or experience. So, you know, what's that thing that you're eventually going to lay back on? So, I guess, do you feel like the church is not doing a good job of engaging, and particularly young people, on an intellectual level with the validity of Scripture, the explanation

[00:27:10] of, you know, difficult passages within the Word of God? Yeah. I think that there are a lot of people recognizing this and trying to turn the ship around. So, I want to be positive about it. I do see a lot of—in fact, I just met with a couple of youth leaders who are doing real discipleship with their young people, with all the things you talked about, really engaging

[00:27:35] them with the difficult parts of Scripture, engaging them with apologetics, and, you know, respecting them enough to say, look, we know you're not stupid. We don't have to just give you little 30-second soundbites on things. Let's dig in, you know? Yeah. And so, I do think that where the church has made mistakes in that area, there are a lot of people really trying to turn the tide. But I think there's another thing going on, and I don't know if we want to get into this or not, but, like, when I went through this and I was realizing how much had been based

[00:28:03] on feelings, I started really thinking, like, of course I'm a musician, I'm a worship leader, so I'm going to be thinking about the way we're doing all of those things. And I began to realize, like, this whole idea that, I mean, nobody ever told me that when, you know, we're doing worship time, we're trying to stir something up, or they never said that with their words. That's what you felt. Like, you're preparing the way for the Holy Spirit to come, or like, you know, when you

[00:28:30] just get to the right pinnacle of your chorus enough times, like, the Holy Spirit can move and, you know, all this stuff. And so many people have bought into this, but I remember just going to Scripture and looking at the model, and I was just like, it's not there. Now, there's music, yes, but that is not present in the New Testament model. And I remember being so convicted about that, like, that's not why we do that. That's not the purpose. That's not even what's going on.

[00:28:58] And so when I was able to sort of switch my brain to go, look, I'm not going into worship to experience something for myself. I sing songs about the nature and character of God to glorify Him, to lift His name high, to magnify Christ. And sometimes that feels really good to do that, and that's great. I love when I really connect emotionally with a great song. I love that. But also, it gives you such freedom because you know that if you have glorified Christ,

[00:29:28] then it's great. He's glorified. And even if you didn't get some kind of, like, a great feeling from it, you've declared truth about God with your mouth, and that is so great. So I think that the church, there could be some of that neglect, but also I think that the church in general has really accepted just a really bad theology of music. And it's something I've kind of been thinking through a little bit more lately, but I think that's the kind of other side of the coin, maybe.

[00:29:55] Well, I've just done an interview with Matt Merker, who works with the Gettys, and he's written a book on corporate worship, which I think addresses a lot of these issues. But you're right, I think, because what's coming back to it is that emotions can mislead us. Emotions are not grounded in a truth. I mean, it is grounded in an experience. But just the same way that a piece of music about unrequited love or something can have

[00:30:25] that effect on you, then you should say, okay, what's the difference between that and me singing praise to Jesus? If I'm having the same emotion, there has to be something that grounds the thing that is of greater value. It has to be scripture. It has to be the word of God. It has to be something that we know is ultimately true and actually sends us a message about who we are, about who God is, and really kind of helps define those things for us.

[00:30:55] And you're right. I think people do. They want to leave their sort of Sunday, Sabbath day experience feeling emotionally high. But again, if emotions can mislead us, then it's not about that. It's about that we've been together with the people of God and we have benefited from seeing, you know, the sacraments. We've sat under the preaching of the word and those things that are true will resound within us because the spirit is within us.

[00:31:23] And that's, I think that's kind of the picture of what we're looking for. Yeah. To come back to this topic of progressive Christianity, I wonder if you can kind of help us a little bit define it. What are some of the core beliefs within progressive Christianity? And I've read some of your works that say, you know, as you said, you couldn't even find a book on the topic or the issue because no one had really written about it because it's sort of so many things encompassed. But I mean, if you had to break it down to its core, you know, what are those things that you find?

[00:31:53] Yeah, that's a great question. And so I'll come at it from three different angles. So you're right. It's very hard to define because there are so many different things going on. So where I would start is if we look at historic Christianity, historically, Christians have viewed the apostles, the eyewitnesses, those people who knew Jesus, walked with him and witnessed his life. Those people would have the highest authority to tell us about his life because they were

[00:32:22] the closest to him. And so that's why we would consider, you know, the apostles are authoritative. When we read their works in the New Testament, this is the word of God. But in progressive Christianity, they're going to view that kind of the opposite. They're going to view those apostles, those closest to Jesus, those who walked with him, really to represent Christianity in its infancy. So it was just a little baby that was learning to crawl.

[00:32:45] And so now as it progresses, that's the progressive part, and we come to more enlightenment and we get more information about God, we can look back on that early Christianity and we can say, well, you know, we don't really agree with Paul. He was one of the first guys trying to figure it out. And so we have more knowledge about God now. And so it would sort of be like this total opposite trajectory would be the first way I would say that we could look at it.

[00:33:14] Now, just to define it as far as the general beliefs, then I can give you a few core tenets, would be if you took the theological liberalism that arose in the late 1800s, early 1900s, and you married that with postmodernism. So this sort of subjective truth, what's true for you is true for you, live your truth, with some of those theologically liberal conclusions. And you marry that together and just sort of drop it like a bomb into the evangelical church.

[00:33:44] That's progressive Christianity. Wow. So it's liberal Christianity, yes, but it does have its own unique flavor in that it's sort of festering in the evangelical church right now. And so that would be sort of an overview. And then the kind of the core tenets, this is what I discovered. So when I used to define it, I would say, well, you can't really define it. So here are just some things to look for. But after I did my research, I was like, oh, actually, there are some really rock hard core tenets that you won't say that these are tenets, but they are.

[00:34:14] I mean, this is what was completely universal across all of the progressive materials I interacted with. And that's basically, if you just kind of hit all the key points of the gospel, it's a denial of all of those. So starting even with the concept of original sin and a sin nature being passed down, that's rejected in the progressive church. They'll say, no, it's not original sin. They use the term original blessing or original goodness, and they'll say, your sin did not separate you from God.

[00:34:44] If you feel separated from God, that's just your shame. All you need to do is realize how loved you are and how accepted you already are. And then you won't, you know, it's not like you ever were separated from God, but you just have to realize that you're not separated from God. So that's where it starts. Well, of course, if your sin doesn't separate you from God and you just have to realize how loved you are, well, then what does the cross mean? So that's kind of the next pillar to fall. And so progressive Christians will deny the atonement outright.

[00:35:14] They would probably affirm like moral influence theory. They'll affirm a broader definition of Christus Victor, not really, you know, the classical meaning of that. But they'll use phraseology like that. But they deny substitutionary atonement almost universally, especially penal substitutionary atonement when you talk about payment or punishment. They call this cosmic child abuse. That's right. So this is something that's just roundly rejected. And then if we zoom out a little bit, well, what is their gospel then?

[00:35:43] How does this, if you're taking the atonement away, you're taking any kind of sin separation from a holy God away, what is their gospel? Well, this is where progressive Christianity is really characterized not so much about what you believe, but about what you do. So whatever, you know, what kind of activism are you doing? What systems of oppression are you trying to dismantle? What power are you speaking truth to? What causes are you advocating for?

[00:36:08] And that becomes basically like the social justice type gospel. Which is what we see playing out in front of us. Exactly. It's everywhere. And so it's more about what you do, not so much about what you believe. This is a workspace gospel. It's not the gospel of grace. But probably I shouldn't leave out the view of the Bible because this would be sort of the thing that informs everything. So if we look at historically, sure, Christians have disagreed about all kinds of interpretations.

[00:36:37] We have different denominations, of course. But historically speaking, and I talk about this in my book, that I believe Jesus' view, the view of the apostles, the earliest Christians, was that the Bible is the word of God. It's inspired by God, and therefore it's not going to have mistakes in it. It's not going to fail you. It's not going to go away. It's all about Jesus. And ultimately, because of all of that, it's authoritative for our lives as Christians. Christians have always, we've settled our disputes on the scripture.

[00:37:06] Like that's our source of truth. Whereas in progressive Christianity, they don't view the Bible as the word of God. They say, well, maybe you could find the word of God in it, but the people who wrote it were fallible. They were writing their best understandings of God in the times and places they lived, but they weren't really speaking for Him. So therefore, when you see God command Israel to wipe out the Canaanites, well, that wasn't really God. That was just Israel trying to appease their deity like the nations around them.

[00:37:35] And so if that's their view of the Bible, of course, you're free to disagree with Paul. You're free to disagree with Peter. I mean, they disagree with Jesus on a lot of things as well. Um, I think it's a very low view of scripture and probably the best way to sum that up. I heard somebody else say this, and it's a really good sum up of the progressive view of the Bible. They don't view the Bible as a God's word to man. They view the Bible as man's word about God. And so that would be kind of where all of the other stuff flows out of.

[00:38:05] Which leaves you with very little hope. Um, because then God has not directly communicated with His people or with people. I mean, just out of curiosity, you know, what, what do you do with Jesus? Is He fully God, fully man? Is it? And I, I would assume at this point, you probably find breaks within the different progressive groups. What you'll hear a lot is in regard to the Bible, a lot of times they'll say, well, Jesus is the living word. Jesus is the word.

[00:38:35] And yet Christian, you know, all you Christians are off worshiping the Bible, but Jesus is the word. That's who, that's who you should be going to. They'll make that separation there. But I mean, as far as Jesus deity, this is something you're right. There's going to be different views about that. There are a lot of progressives. Certainly I want to grant that would say Jesus is God, but a really popular leader really that, that a lot of progressives consider to be a spiritual mentor, a spiritual father

[00:39:00] is a Franciscan friar named Richard Rohr, who teaches that, you know, Jesus was basically a guy who grabbed hold of this Christ consciousness. He realized the divinity within, and he's a model and an exemplar that we can follow. We can do the same thing. Richard Rohr will say, Jesus never asked to be worshiped, you know, kind of this implication that we have this knee-jerk reaction to worship the messenger, but really we should grab hold of the message, which is that we can all embrace this Christ consciousness,

[00:39:29] which by the way, is a uniquely new age idea. This is coming out of the new age and it's been kind of transported into the church through guys like Richard Rohr. But progressive Christians are really big on this, you know, certainly not all, but it's very big in that movement. So yeah, the deity of Jesus, if anything, it's downplayed. You know, even if they won't outright say the Bible is not the word of God, they'll say it's profoundly human. You know, it's just such a human book. So they'll emphasize the humanity of it versus the divinity of it. And kind of same with Jesus.

[00:39:57] In fact, recently, like just this week, a TikTok went viral where a guy is claiming that Jesus repented from his racism. Of the Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7. Yeah, I've seen that as well. There's at least two other progressive leaders who have said similar things. So this is becoming sort of a common interpretation of that verse. Now, from what I understand, that's been around for a long time. That whole idea of, you know, the woman was speaking truth to power and Jesus has to kind

[00:40:25] of repent of his language towards the Gentiles. But for you and I who have, you know, a sort of historical orthodoxy, you know, just the concept of the creator God who's humiliated himself to come on earth repenting to a human. I mean, it's just, it's absurd. But if you had a very unintellectual, you know, and I'm not trying to make intellectual a works-based thing.

[00:40:51] But if you really haven't wrestled with scripture and you had a very cursory read of a verse like that, part of me isn't surprised that people come to these conclusions. You know, and that's why I think it's important. And I think you're doing a fantastic job of this, of really, in a sense, putting a challenge out for churches, you know, whether you're intentionally doing this or not. But I think it's really challenging churches to say, we need to be able to have the difficult conversations. You know, I think of it this way.

[00:41:20] I mean, if you look at, you know, where a lot of churches are at this point is that you have an older generation whose children never really had the challenge, you know, maybe even had an experience such as yourself in that it was highly experience-based. They never really had to wrestle with the doctrines of faith. And so that when they go off to a university and they're exposed to someone who, a hopeful

[00:41:47] agnostic as you were, or, you know, a professor who thinks and teaches a very sort of dogmatic approach, you know, anti-biblical, they don't have the tools in their tool belt to deal with those arguments that are coming at them. And then they come home and tell mom and dad, you know, I don't know if I believe all this anymore. And mom and dad don't even have the tools in their tool belt to deal with it as well. And so that they just mourn over this child who seems so lost. Again, it's putting the pressure back on the churches.

[00:42:18] And that being said, the leaders and the members of the church to make sure that we are, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, but I mean, the idea of how do we cultivate an environment in the home and in the church where questions are welcomed? I mean, how do we start that process? Well, that's such a great point because it does have to start in the home. And I think that sometimes Christians, we have to fight a fear reaction.

[00:42:48] Like I noticed with my kids, my kids are 12 and 9, and they're pretty sheltered still. Like they go to Christian school, go to church, they get it from us. You know, they're not really out experiencing the world yet, you know? Not on the streets. Right. We're careful with what they watch, that sort of thing. We try not to be too, you know, I don't want them to just like not know anything about what's happening in the world. I want to teach them how to interact with that stuff. So it's not like they're totally locked down, but it is interesting.

[00:43:15] Even so, just the skepticism that is so steeped in the culture that even affects them. Because I think back about when I was a kid and I read the story of Moses crossing the Red Sea, and my first question was, wow, what was that like? You know, like were there fish on the sides or did it, you know, what did it look like? And what did that feel like to experience that? Well, when I read that to my daughter for the first time, she was probably six or seven. Her first question was, did that really happen? Yeah. You know?

[00:43:44] And so we have to realize like the generation is asking different questions. And so our tendency to do this fear reaction, like we got to just, we got to just engage. Yeah. And we have to. It's healthy skepticism. It is healthy. It is healthy. And it just, it's just a skepticism I never experienced. So it's foreign to me and it can be scary when something's foreign. But what I've learned with my daughter is to just really engage. Don't, you know, don't be fearful, but just say, that's such a good question. And, you know, no, you don't have to be an apologist. You have to be, just have to be curious.

[00:44:14] Let's figure out the answer together. We can find it out together. And creating an environment in the home, I think, where these conversations are not only welcome, but really common. Like I've started to do this with my kids where I'll just say, hey, what's your biggest question about God? And I mean, just get ready though, because they're going to come up with some really interesting stuff, but to really make that a safe place for them to be able to say, I don't know. I don't know if I buy that. And why do we, why do we think that?

[00:44:44] And so it's got to start there. But churches also have to be a place where people can, especially with, I mean, we're in a totally different age now with the internet. I mean, people have access to all kinds of information. Not all of it true, obviously, with the internet. And we have to be able to say, okay, this is a place where we can engage this stuff. And so I do think that's something that churches are going to have to really start taking really seriously and not just reserve that for the little, you know, apologetics class that runs

[00:45:13] for six weeks out of the year on Tuesday nights. I mean, like this has to really become a part of pastors' sermons when we can't just anymore. I mean, we can't take for granted that people know, well, if you're preaching from James, why do we know that book should even be in the Bible? You know, just doing a little bit of that in the setup for sermons and things, I think will be incredibly helpful. As we talked about the sort of this progressive movement, does progressive Christianity get anything right?

[00:45:40] Or is it sort of a wholesale, everything's wrong? That's a good question. And I do want to give credit where credit is due. I do think that in the beginning of maybe going back to like the emergent movement in the, which is very closely connected. It's kind of the same thing, really. It just has a new name. But some of the critiques that they were bringing out about church culture, evangelical church culture, I think were valid critiques.

[00:46:08] These were things that I was observing even in some of the churches I visited when I was traveling around in Zoe Girl. Just, you know, the whole celebrity pastor thing, just different things about, you know, we haven't treated this particular group of people with true Christian love enough, or we've just sort of not given them any resources because this is their struggle, so we're just going to put you guys over here and not really deal with it. You know, things like that.

[00:46:34] And so I think that they did have some valid critiques, which is why I think I felt a kindred spirit at this church that I didn't realize was going to throw the gospel out with all that stuff. And I think that's the thing that was so surprising to me is that along with these critiques, they were so willing to just throw the gospel out, like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think that they get that right. They tend to do community well, you know, they tend to because there's really no judgment for you can kind of live however you want.

[00:47:03] So there's not going to be any accountability as far as moral accountability. It makes it a lot easier to do community, that's for sure. You talked a little bit about some of the tenants that were coming out of that progressive movement, and they tended to hinge on sort of core essential doctrinal issues for the sort of, again, to use the term historical Orthodox believers that we would hold on to. So how do we define what beliefs are essential versus non-essential things?

[00:47:33] And I think you've started to kind of touch on that with some of the things that that movement was getting right in the early sort of emergent days. Where do you kind of draw some of these lines? Yeah, and this is an important question because in progressive Christianity, there really are no distinctions. All doctrines are kind of put on the same level. Resurrection of Jesus, speaking in tongues, kind of the same. Drinking alcohol. Yeah, it's drinking, smoking, cussing, resurrection.

[00:48:02] It's really of the same importance. And so I think that's one thing that it took me a while to realize that's what was going on because I couldn't understand why they were so easy to just abandon the cross. I was like, wait, wait, we can talk about, you know, women in ministry or whatever, but like you're throwing the cross out? Like what? You know, it was just like really confusing to me. And so I have a chapter in my book. The final chapter is my reconstruction story, and that's where I kind of go through what I think are the essentials of the faith.

[00:48:31] And, you know, I think that probably you and I would be on the same page. Although if you Google what are the essentials of the Christian faith, you're going to get like 10 different lists with different numbers of beliefs. So here's how I do it. I say this, a doctrine is essential or primary or like of first importance if it directly affects your salvation. If it's a salvation issue, if it's an issue we can argue about once we're all in heaven, it doesn't mean it's not important. It doesn't mean somebody can't be teaching error if they're teaching the wrong thing

[00:49:01] about that, but is it going to keep you from eternity with God? That's an essential issue for me. And so that is going to be things like the atonement, the resurrection, the final judgment, heaven and hell, these types of really core gospel issues. You have to realize you're a sinner. You can't be saved unless you realize you need a Savior. You have to acknowledge you're a sinner. You have to identify Jesus as your Savior. Yeah, there's repentance. Repentance.

[00:49:29] Yeah, there's things involved with what it actually means to follow Jesus and put saving faith in Him. And again, like I said, some of these other issues are extremely important, and I think there are biblical views, and then there are things that are more ambiguous, but I would call it a secondary issue if it's not going to keep you from eternity with God, if that makes sense. For the person that may be listening to this that's saying, hmm, some of this is sounding a little bit familiar.

[00:49:59] You know, what are those sort of things, teachings, experiences, whatever it is that will help people discover whether they are really in a progressive church or not? Yeah. So there are definitely some things to look for. And here's one piece of advice I would give a friend of mine who was actually at the same church that I was at where I told my story. Now, remember, on Sunday, he was preaching more historically Orthodox sermons, lots of scripture, and then sort of this other stuff was going on behind the scenes.

[00:50:29] But even so, she still had some red flags on the Sunday mornings because she wasn't a part of the class. We met back up years after we had both left the church, and I said, well, what caused you to finally leave? And she said, well, I couldn't tell if what he was teaching was wrong. So every time he said something that gave me a red flag, I wrote it down in a notebook. And she said, after a year, I looked at my list and I went, oh, my goodness, like, we've got to get out of here. And so I thought that was such good advice because it's very slow and subtle. It was drip fed, sure. Very slow.

[00:50:57] And it's like, you know, language is co-opted and redefined. Like, I remember listening to a sermon he taught on the Garden of Eden. And if you believed Adam and Eve were real people and the fall was real, you could have heard every word through that filter and been like, that was a great sermon. If you also thought, oh, that didn't really happen and there is no fall, we don't have a sin nature, and this is just a metaphor for, you know, some kind of moral lesson, you could have heard the same words and put it through that filter. He's very good at using double language.

[00:51:24] So with that said, there are signs you can look for. I would look for any kind of emphasis of the Bible being human. Any orthodox Christian, any Christian that really loves the Bible and loves God's Word is certainly going to acknowledge that God spoke through humans and, you know, their grammatical styles are reflected, their cultural, their personalities, you know, God used all of that. But they're going to want to emphasize that it's God's Word.

[00:51:52] They're going to want to emphasize that element of it, whereas in progressive Christianity, they are going to want to emphasize the humanity of all of it. I would look for maybe subtle slights to the atonement, maybe not teaching it at all or just avoiding it or maybe kind of casting it in a negative light, making, again, emphasizing the human element. Well, it was humans who killed Jesus because certainly, yes, humans did kill Jesus in the

[00:52:19] physical world, but this was a sovereign, you know, act of God as well. If you read Isaiah 53, the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. So, you know, looking for a more human emphasis on all of that stuff would be something to look for. Look for that redefinition of words. Look for the willingness to redefine or reinterpret really core historic doctrines where they're like, you know, we're going to take another look at the resurrection. Maybe it doesn't have to be physical for us to learn something from the story.

[00:52:49] You know, desupernaturalizing the Bible and things like that, or just avoiding the gospel altogether. We can look to the mainline churches that have adopted this theological liberalism, and very often the sermons are just, you know, how to be a good person, what we can do for the world and, you know, environmental care and things like this. If you're hearing a lot of that and really not the gospel, that would be a huge red flag, I would think. Hmm.

[00:53:14] I want to shift now to the way we confront this false gospel. I'm sure you'd agree, but, you know, we need to be really careful here. And so let me start by asking, how do we confront false teaching without becoming that sort of spiritual headhunter? Oh, that's such a good question, because that's the one thing I don't want to become. In fact, I have so much grace for people. I will give people such a long rope, especially if they have a long track record of being faithful

[00:53:44] to the gospel. You know, I'm just not one of those people that is looking for the next heretic. I'm just really not. I'm hoping that, you know, even if you have concerns about somebody who's been faithful for a long time, maybe a platformed author or somebody, I'm going to give that person such a long rope and just pray, God, please show them that this is the wrong trajectory and all that stuff. So I appreciate that question, because, you know, some of the websites I come across really hit me like, man, these people are just excited when they find a heretic, you know? Yeah.

[00:54:14] Yes, we can't wait. Let's get the stakes ready. Get it, yeah. So I don't like that posture at all. But at the same time, so much of the New Testament is dedicated to what to do about false teachers and false teaching. I mean, look at Jude, look at Galatians. I mean, this is a major, major theme throughout the New Testament. It was something Jesus talked about a lot. In fact, Jesus actually said, we call them wolves. That's what they're called, false teachers. And so there is, we do need to stand for truth.

[00:54:43] We have to stand up and put those guardrails up and say, look, we love you. You're not going to bring that in here. We are not going to teach that here. And if you're in a church where you see some of these shifts start to happen, my recommendation would be, don't just sit on it. Now, if you're not sure, do what my friend did. Start writing stuff down. Gather a lot of evidence so that you're really confident in what you're saying and you know exactly what you're saying. It's not just this bad feeling you had about something someone said.

[00:55:10] Because I've even heard people who aren't, and again, I don't mean this as a slam because I wasn't really theologically literate either. I didn't know the terms and things. But I've even heard Christians who will react in fear to something that's really completely orthodox, but they just haven't heard it before, worded that way. And they're like, oh, that's awful. You know, that's heresy because that's unfamiliar. So really well informed, but with a humble spirit. You know, share your concerns with your pastor.

[00:55:38] And I know a girl who joined a women's Bible study because they were going to be studying one of these progressive books. And she joined it on purpose to try to bring light. And she was successful. She was able to show how this book was actually anti-biblical. And all of the girls in her weekly Bible study were like, man, this was a bad book. Like, we get it. And so there are, you know, there are things you can do in a humble spirit, but strong. We've got to speak up.

[00:56:08] We can't just pretend it'll go away because it won't. It will only fester and grow and get worse. I think probably everyone listening to this, if they're not involved in this, they know at least a handful of people that are. How do we talk to those sort of progressive friends and family members who are either just beginning to get caught up in this or really enmeshed in this already? Hmm. This is a great question.

[00:56:37] And the answer is sort of fresh on my mind because just earlier today, I spoke with a guy who was in a pretty famous Christian band who deconstructed, but ended up being discipled back to historic Christianity. Wow. And I'm actually going to put that on my podcast really soon. But one of the things he said, because this pastor reached out to him and started discipling him. And I said, well, what did he do that, you know, obviously it didn't turn you off. It slowly but surely brought you back.

[00:57:07] And what he described was someone who he genuinely felt loved and respected by this person. And this pastor was genuinely curious about what he believed and why he believed it and didn't begin with a whole bunch of opposition. He got to know him. He loved him. And the other thing too is like, you can't fake that. The guy knew that he was loved and respected by this guy. He genuinely cared, yeah. Yeah. But then he'd push him a little. He'd say, you know, what are you reading these days?

[00:57:33] And he'd find a way to kind of get at one of the issues. And so then this guy was able to say, well, look, I don't really think that the Bible, I think it's a man's book about God. I don't think that this is really God's word. And I think that it's been corrupted and all this stuff. Now, this pastor was also very knowledgeable and apologetic. So he was able to say, well, hey, you know, actually, if you look at this and just give him enough to chew on a little bit at a time, then take him to a hockey game. And it was like this relationship, this discipleship.

[00:58:02] And I thought that was such a beautiful representation of how those conversations can go. But what we have to remember with progressive Christianity, because it's very subjective, it's like my truth versus your truth. And it's really considered bigoted to tell somebody they're wrong about things. It's much more effective with a progressive Christian to ask a lot of questions. You can ask questions that can totally lead people to conclusions. I mean, look, that's what Rob Bell did in his book, Love Wins. All he did was ask questions.

[00:58:30] But the questions like lead you to this answer that's, you know, leading you away from God. And so questions can be very powerful. That's Jesus used a lot of questions. And so I would just say that, like, make sure the person knows that you're loved, that they are loved by you, first of all. And then you can start having those meaningful conversations within that sort of relationship of trust. Okay. What do you say to the person who realizes that they are falling for the lies of progressive Christianity?

[00:59:00] That they realize it. So they actually. Yeah. So they're, you know, because now they're actually not sure of anything. Right. So they're realizing this is not true. It's, it's unhelpful. How do I get out of here? Yeah. Because I think you've touched on it before. I think there's a way that we can become very preachy and continue to, you know, bash down what they're already departing from. So, so what are, you know, what are some of the things, you know, thinking about your

[00:59:28] own story of, of coming out of it? You know, what were the helpful and unhelpful things that maybe people were saying to you? Yeah, that's really good. This is a good question because there were two people that were very close to me that had opposite reactions and one was very effective and one was very ineffective. So with one of the people. Right. This exactly answers the question. I know it really does. So with this one person, it was like, man, fear, total fear.

[00:59:56] I didn't want to really talk about it because I didn't want anyone else to lose their faith. So it was really hard for me to even sort of voice what I was going through. And I didn't talk to many people about it. I didn't even realize, I didn't even understand it for the longest time. But I remember kind of bringing it up to this one person and it was just fear. Like, don't believe that you need to believe the Bible and you need to do this. And it was like, okay, won't be talking to you again. But this other person, a very mature believer, I remember just kind of bringing up this question, like, what do you think about that?

[01:00:23] And this person just said to me, like, well, why does that rattle you so much? I remember them asking me that. And I was like, oh, so like, obviously, you're not rattled by it. I'm rattled by it. But why am I rattled by it? And so that caused me to think through more why that question was so important. And then we looked at some answers together. And that made me like, okay, now I can bring all my stuff to this person because they are not going to be scared of my questions. And so I think that those are probably two examples of like a do and a don't.

[01:00:53] Well, that's funny, because that reinforces what you talked about with children. If you can display to your children, let's say, well, you're not an apologist. You may not, again, you may not have the tool to answer the particular question that may be quite challenging. But you can show to your child, but I know where to go. Yeah. I know what to trust and why to trust it. And that we can talk about together. But let's go to this together. You actually display a humility to your child.

[01:01:23] But you also show them where you know the places are that you can tread that are trustworthy. And it perhaps sets out a pattern for them that will help them so that when those really difficult, challenging days, questions, moments of doubt come to them, they say, but I do remember mom and dad or whoever, they always trusted the word of God or this particular, you know, whatever it is. Mm hmm. Okay.

[01:01:49] What do you say to the person who is deeply unsettled by those unanswered questions that they have about their faith? So for someone who would describe themselves that way, the first question that I would want to ask them is, where are these questions coming from? Because I have really discovered there's really people have all these talks and books about all the different kinds of doubt. I actually think there's really only two kinds of doubt. There's honest doubt seeking truth.

[01:02:18] And if that's you, you're going to be fine. There's so much material to engage with. There's a lifetime of answers. That people don't know about. Yeah, there is a lifetime of answers, books this thick that will answer whatever question you could possibly think of, because you're not going to think of any new question. Like there is a book this thick on that question right now, and it's great. So if you're really honestly seeking truth, you're going to be just fine.

[01:02:45] But the other kind of doubt is what I would describe as someone who already has decided they want out, and now they're looking for justification for that. And that's when you're going to go get your Bart Ehrman book. That's when you're going to go get, you know, all of that. And if that's where you're at, I mean, you've already decided. And I think that that's something that we all need to be kind of honest with ourselves about. Like, where are these questions coming from? Are these, because I know I didn't want to deconstruct. I didn't want to.

[01:03:15] But it was just sort of happening. And so when I would find a good answer, it was like, oh, that's a great answer. In fact, it dwarfs the question. And then, you know, not to make it sound like everything's all tidy. There are still some things where I scratch my head about, like, I don't know. God, you'll have to explain that one to me when I get to having, because I don't get that fully. But there's definitely things, you know, to wrestle through. But there's enough where you can be like, okay, God is trustworthy. His word is trustworthy. I may not get the whole thing. But I trust him.

[01:03:42] And I think that's ultimately what it comes down to, even when we come to these difficult passages in the Old Testament that are hard for our modern minds to make sense of. Do you trust that he's good or not? That's what's at the bottom of all those questions. And so, yeah, just kind of diagnosing where that is coming from. If you're really seeking truth and you want the answer, or if you've already decided you don't believe and you're looking for reasons to justify that. Because I've talked with people where that's the case, and it does not matter how many good answers you give them.

[01:04:10] They will keep rephrasing the question a hundred times. And it's because they've made their mind up already. Yeah, and they'll never be satisfied. No, yeah. A final question, Elisa Childers. We've been asking sort of our, in the last few months, guests this question. And that is, what is a question you would have for God upon entry into his kingdom, into heaven? Oh, man. Well, I probably would ask him, why did I think I would have all these questions?

[01:04:41] But I think if it were, like, just for what I'm kind of, like, thinking about right now, I would probably ask him, I understand the hiddenness of God. You know, like, what they'll refer to as the problem of the hiddenness of God. But I think I would ask him, when someone really has put their trust in you, when they're all in, they're saved. Yeah. You know, why do you still feel hidden sometimes? I think that'd be the question I would ask him. And I think I know the answer, but. Yeah. You know. But it's still, I understand. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:11] And we can sometimes have the part of the answer, but still want to know. Yeah. Give me the direct answer. Yeah. Lisa Childers, it has been an absolute privilege to talk on these things, Progressive Christianity. Your book is another gospel. We will have links for it in the show notes. I do wonder if you would close us in a word of prayer as we consider people who are struggling

[01:05:39] with these things or perhaps are burdened with someone who is trending towards Progressive Christianity. Yeah, that's great. Well, Father, we come to you with so much thankfulness in our hearts for who you are. We thank you that you are good and faithful and trustworthy. We thank you for your love. We thank you for real love that we know because you loved us first. That's how we even know what love is.

[01:06:07] And I thank you that your gospel is beautiful. Your plan of salvation is so beautiful. And I pray that just for anyone listening who might not be seeing the beauty of the gospel, or maybe it's been presented to them in a way that's more of a caricature. Maybe they haven't really heard the real gospel. And I pray that your Holy Spirit would convict their conscience to listen and to become open

[01:06:32] to seeing the beauty of your plan, which, gosh, just when you know that you're a sinner, the gospel just becomes so beautiful. So I pray for all of us, Lord, that as we, even for Christians who are listening, that as we walk through this process of sanctification in our lives, that we would respond to the light and the conviction that you give us that we could become more and more like you every single day. And for people who might be in some sort of a deconstruction process, Lord, I pray for those

[01:07:02] who know you, who love you, that they will bring all of their doubts and questions to you and not doubt away from you, but doubt toward you. Because we know even from the story of John the Baptist, how tender you are toward doubters. When John the Baptist is basically on death row and he starts to doubt and he sends his disciples to ask Jesus, you know, are you the one or should we look for another? And Jesus, you are so tender with him. You didn't shame him for his question, but you sent his disciples back with evidence.

[01:07:32] Look, the blind see, the lame hear and the prophecy about the Messiah that John would have understood. And I love that tenderness that we can see in that story. And I pray that every person listening would sense that tenderness that you have toward them as they go through these doubts and questions. And maybe if there's somebody who's never even admitted their question, that this might be the catalyst that would cause them to just talk to somebody about it. Because we don't want to just shove those things down. We've got to get it out into the light.

[01:07:59] So I pray that you would just lead and guide every person who is listening today in that process. And we pray all of this in Jesus' name. Amen. Elisa Childers, thank you so much for joining us on Candid Conversations. Thank you. It was such a joy. I think I speak for all of us when I say we love doing this podcast. We're so grateful for all of you who listen. We pray for you guys. We think about you guys when we're talking about what topics are up next.

[01:08:27] We appreciate y'all's prayers for Jonathan and for all of us as we continue to produce Candid. A special shout out to Jonathan. I think we all have a special appreciation for him now after the four of us have sat in this suite, played the part of host for the last hour, that Jonathan just does a fantastic job. We're grateful for what we get to do and we're grateful that you guys are coming alongside of us and listening to it. So thank you for listening to Candid. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

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