Episode 202: Candid Favorites: "God's Got This!" Worshiping God Through Difficult Times: Julie Chapman

[00:00:05] Hello and welcome to Candid, where we never settle for less than the truth. I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef. Each week, we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions, and take a candid look at the Christian faith. This month, the Candid production team is taking over the podcast to share their favorite episodes as we hit our 200th episode milestone. Here's the team.

[00:00:35] As we celebrate the 200th episode here of Candid. Woohoo! Yay! We're giving you a sneak peek of how Candid works, how we help support Jonathan in this awesome venture that's been a big one for three years now. Yes. Yeah. So we're sharing each our favorite episode. And I'll introduce myself. I'm Lauren. I'm Bethany. I'm Autumn. And I'm Faith. And I'm going to be sharing my favorite episode with y'all right now.

[00:01:03] I work on the podcast, handling social media. And my favorite episode is the one with Julie Chapman, worshiping God in difficult times. She's my mom. So Julie is around the Candid team from time to time. And just hearing her share her story is like getting to hear it as like a third party, even though my family and I were obviously alongside her in her journey. Mm-hmm.

[00:01:27] It was really cool. And it always moves me because the grace and the faith and the hope she maintains is such a beautiful example of living life as a true believer with all of your trust being placed in Christ. And sometimes I get this like glimpse of seeing her not as my mom, but as just like a fellow believer and just seeing her as the amazing story that she has and like the things God has brought her through.

[00:01:52] So I was 18 months old in 1995 when my mom was diagnosed with a brain tumor. And it was benign in the sense of that it wasn't cancerous, but not benign in the sense of that it was wrapped around her brain stem. So she ended up having a nine-hour surgery for that. And she just talks about in the episode how when she was in the hospital, she was with my dad and she just felt the Lord come into that room.

[00:02:15] And she just felt the peace that passes all understanding. And she says in the episode, she didn't know if that meant she would survive because the doctors had told her one nick could lead to life-changing disabilities or death. And so she says, I don't know if that means I'm going to be okay or if I'm going to live, but I know I'm going to be okay. Like Christ is here. He's in this room. And fast forward, y'all need to listen to the episode because it's really good. It's quite a story.

[00:02:41] She's now, she survived, praise God, with no deficits and has now lived through cancer three times. And she is just like a walking billboard of trusting the Lord, of faith, of saying, I went through all of these things, but that was the Lord's way of letting me share my story, letting me share how he's worked through me. She doesn't know we're doing this. And so she's going to be really excited. So hi, mom. Love you.

[00:03:07] I'm not crying. I'm eight and a half months pregnant, so I may be about to cry, but just really grateful she let us highlight her testimony and just grateful for the way she's willing to share it and how it encourages people. So, yeah, I think what's really cool about your mom's story and something that is easy to forget when we listen to these like isolated episodes is like everybody's journey and faith is still ongoing and she's still walking by faith. She still has to do her scans, what, every three months.

[00:03:33] Yeah. And so just seeing that story keeps going and it keeps continuing and she's still trusting God and, you know, receiving every day is a gift from him. So that's so good. I loved this episode. You're I don't know your mom, but I feel like I know your mom. I wrote a quote down here because I loved it when she said, when I look at the scars on my body, I look at them as those are my road map to Jesus. I can tell you a story of how Jesus has worked in my life.

[00:04:01] And I was like, oh, scars, like we all have scars, right? But how your mom looks at them as their road map to Jesus. That was just so beautiful. Just so, so helpful. I love that. And, you know, seeing your mom, your mom is one of the most positive people I've ever met. And she's such a joy to be around. And Faith is one of our favorite people in this world. And so it's been wonderful to get to know her mother as well. But I was thinking for Faith, too, what a blessing to be able to hear what your mother was thinking and going through.

[00:04:30] I know you've heard the stories a lot of times, but sometimes you don't get that glimpse into your own mom's heart and mind. So I thought that was such a great episode to have and then to be able to share later. She is a true example of considering it all joy. I've never seen someone who has walked through so many trials with such joy and confidence in the Lord. So it's just a great reminder to all of us. We need those reminders because nowadays it's real common to not walk with joy through things. Yes. And as she always says, God's got this. That's what she says.

[00:05:00] God's got this. I hope you guys enjoy my mom's episode. Julie Chapman, Worshiping God in Difficult Times. As hard as it is to believe, I am so grateful for this plan that God had for me that I had no idea was coming. If this illness and the light of Jesus shine through me so I can help other people, it's worth every second of sickness. And it's nothing compared to what Christ did for us.

[00:05:27] So, you know, you want to try to hold on to what is God going to try to teach me through this. Hello and welcome to Candid, where we never settle for less than the truth. I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef. And each week we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions, and take a candid look at the Christian faith. This is a trying time.

[00:05:55] Whether you're struggling with social distancing, or you have lost your job, or you're experiencing health issues, 2020 has been a tough year for so many of us. Today's free download, Why Understanding Suffering in Light of the Gospel, is a visual guide that provides biblical insight on why suffering exists. Three types of suffering and the hope God provides in each one.

[00:06:23] Scriptural examples of God's redemptive work and suffering. Promises we can cling to in times of difficulty. Discover the unshakable hope, peace, and comfort that God gives His children in the midst of life's trials. Visit ltw.org slash candid for your free download today. Today's episode was created to encourage you. It focuses on worshiping God through trying times.

[00:06:52] And let me tell you, my guest today has certainly been through hard times. Julie Chapman is a three-time cancer and brain tumor survivor. While I was talking with her, I even found myself saying, this is the person that I want in the room if I ever receive bad news. Her optimism, her determination to point others to the light and the truth of Jesus,

[00:07:16] and her unwavering faith will inspire and encourage you to dive deeper into your relationship with Christ, especially in difficult times. I hope you enjoy this episode. Julie Chapman, welcome to Candid. We are so glad that you're here with us. Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here. Julie, I wonder if you could just start out by telling us a little bit about yourself,

[00:07:46] where you're from, what you do. Sure. I was born in Valdosta, Georgia. I'm a good South Georgia girl. I grew up in Stone Mountain and became, I went to the University of Georgia and forever a diehard bulldog and got my master's degree in early childhood education. So I'm in my 24th year of teaching and I love it. You know, this, this working from home, school from home has been a bit of a challenge,

[00:08:14] I think for everybody, but I, I miss the kids. I got into teaching because I just love children. And so I've missed them. But I'm very happily married to a strong man of God. And I've got four precious kids. I've got my two daughters, Lauren and Faith and a stepdaughter, Peyton and a stepson, Josh. And I'm really proud of all of them. They, they've all accepted Jesus into their lives. And that's the most important thing.

[00:08:42] Well, Julie, in this episode, it's about worshiping God during difficult times. And I know that you have experienced a number of health issues in your life. And so I wonder if you could just give us a little bit of overview of, of what those issues have looked like in your own life. Absolutely. It may take a minute. We've got time. And I'm here to do whatever God asks of me and to bring him the glory is my hope.

[00:09:10] And, you know, this isn't about me. It's about how God is working through me. So I never want anyone to think this is about me. It's all about God. And in May of 1996, I was 31. The Friday before Mother's Day, I was diagnosed with a benign brain tumor that was wrapping around my brain stem. And I was the mother of a year and a half old and a five and a half year old little girl.

[00:09:38] And I, you know, it was pulled the rug out from under me for the first time. Then in June of 2015, I was diagnosed with stage three colon cancer during a routine colonoscopy. I do have a history of Crohn's and colitis. So they keep a close eye on me. But if you're in that range where you, I would encourage you to go get your routine colonoscopies. It's not that bad. So I had surgery.

[00:10:06] I had a temporary ostomy bag, 12 rounds of chemo. And I had 28 days of radiation in chemo. And then the following spring, they did a takedown of the ostomy bag. And I had an 85% chance of a full recovery. But God had other plans for me. And about a year and a half later, a routine scan showed that the cancer had gone into both of my lungs.

[00:10:35] So I had another six rounds of chemo. I had surgery on one lung, which was actually on Maundy Thursday. I was hoping we could have had communion on Maundy Thursday. But I think I would have ended up sleeping right through it after the surgery. So I had great plans, but that didn't happen. I have what I call Godwinks. To me, there's no such thing as coincidences. Everything that happens in my life, I always look for God in it.

[00:11:05] And, you know, one of my Godwinks, when they scheduled that surgery and it was on Maundy Thursday, it was like, that's fine. I'll take that. To me, that was a sign from God that he's looking over me. It was just my Godwink. And then three weeks later, I had surgery on the other lung and finished out with five rounds of chemo. But I was supposed to have six. But honestly, by that sixth round, I just didn't have it in me to do another round.

[00:11:34] So after a lot of prayer and consulting with my oncologist, Dr. Zelnak, who actually attends Church of the Apostles and is a Sunday school teacher, after a lot of prayer and consulting with her, I didn't do that last round of chemo. And I'm a rule follower, so that was really hard. But my body just couldn't take any more. And then two years later, a routine scan showed it was back again in my lungs.

[00:12:03] And fortunately, I found an outstanding doctor at Emory that we trust, thanks to Dr. Zelnak. And the radiologist told us when we had the scan, it was my routine three-month scan, she said that most likely this isn't cancer, but there's a spot there. And you might want to follow up. So Dr. Zelnak sent me to have a biopsy. And we were all very surprised when it turned out that it was cancer.

[00:12:32] So didn't see that one coming. I didn't see any of this coming, but I know God did. So I had another lung surgery this past January. And I currently have a spot on my right lung again. But we're praying about that. I have a scan coming up soon. And I'd appreciate all your prayers that it hasn't grown or that maybe, you know, it's gone or it hasn't grown.

[00:12:57] And my big thing through all of this, I always had a motto for each of these. The first time when I would be on Facebook and asking for prayer, I'd say, God's got me, Julie. I always signed off with that. And the second time it came back, I said, God's got me, victory lap. And then we're done. Well, then it came back again. And my third time was, God still got me. Third time's the charm.

[00:13:25] So I'm hoping that's going to be it. And we're done with cancer. But only God knows. That's a lot. But it's okay. What does that feel like emotionally, you know, when it just keeps coming back? Like, very honestly, it's pretty devastating. I have sat in Dr. Zelnak's office with tears in my eyes. And she comes in that door. And you can tell the minute she walks in the door.

[00:13:54] I know what's coming. And I have God with me every step of the way. But I can't lie. It's hard. And there are times that, you know, I just have to tell my friends and my family, I can't pray anymore. I am so dry. You're just empty, tired. You know, I still have my Jesus. But I'm just weary. And, yeah, when they keep coming back and telling me it's back, it's pretty devastating.

[00:14:24] But I just usually need to spend some time with my husband and in prayer. And usually within a couple of days, I get my feet back under me. And we're ready to fight and ready to head into the mission field of the chemo lounge, as I call it. And Julie, tell me, I mean, just thinking from 96, when you get your first diagnosis with the brain tumor to today,

[00:14:49] how has your relationship with the Lord evolved over that time through all these trials? Oh, my gosh. Oh, I'm so excited. I love this question. Well, I always grew up in church. And I grew up Methodist. And I was confirmed when I was 12. And I grew up knowing God. My grandmother nanny in South Georgia in the 60s,

[00:15:14] I just have this picture of her and her little net hat and carrying her purse on her arm and her little white gloves going to church every Sunday. So I've always been surrounded by my church family. When I was pregnant with my first daughter, I developed a different relationship with Christ.

[00:15:33] And so when I was diagnosed in 96 and my girls were babies, it's hard to explain exactly how difficult that was. And I knew God had me. But my life was literally on the line.

[00:15:59] It was a benign tumor, but where it was growing was around my brain stem. So the doctor told me before surgery, you know, if he even nicked it, I would die on the table. Oh, man. God and I got really close then. And the coolest thing is that during that time, I learned to pray from my heart, God, may your will be done.

[00:16:27] And just I had to hand it over to him completely. And then the human side of me would kind of laugh and go, but God, if you don't mind, I would love to see my kids grow up. Because I love talking to God. And I feel like he has a sense of humor, too. And I will to this day pray, may your will be done. And so sincerely.

[00:16:52] But then there's a little part of me that I like to go, but you know, I need this or this or this. And when I had the brain tumor, the Book of Psalms and James was where I spent a lot of time. This is so cool. Before my surgery, we ended up going to Little Rock, Arkansas, which was kind of crazy to leave Emory. But that's where the top neurosurgeon in the world was for brain stem tumors was in Little Rock.

[00:17:21] So before our surgery, my doctor was from Damascus, Syria. And the day before surgery, we had brought our God squad, our whole both sides of the family had caravaned out to Little Rock. We had posters hanging in the hospital room and anybody that would come in, you know, we tried to pray. But the day before surgery, my husband at the time, Mike and I, we asked the doctors to pray with us.

[00:17:47] So Dr. Al Mefti, the lead surgeon, and Dr. Cobb, his main assistant, we prayed. And when it was over, Dr. Cobb said, you know, may the prayers of a righteous man yieldeth much. And my heart just skipped a beat. I was so happy to get that feedback from him. And this is the best part.

[00:18:11] The next morning before my brain surgery, my husband, the girl's daddy, Mike, at the time, he and I were in the hospital room. And Mike was sitting in a chair. I can see it like it was yesterday. I was laying in the bed waiting for them to come get me. I had not had any medication. You know, this was so genuine. And I get chills telling you this to this day.

[00:18:36] All of a sudden, I felt that peace that passes all understanding, like you read about in the Bible. And I have chills right now talking to you. It was like God was holding me in his arms like a baby, you know, with both of his arms out and had me cradled in his arms. And I looked over at Mike and I said, God's in this room. Do you feel him? And he said, well, no. And I said, he's here.

[00:19:06] He's in this room and I'm going to be okay. And I get teary-eyed thinking about it because I said, I don't know what okay means. I don't know if it means I'm going to heaven or if I'm going to, you know, there were a lot of side effects that I could have had from this surgery or if I'm going to walk away fine. I said, I just know it means I'm going to be okay. And that was so, oh my goodness, that was so profound for me.

[00:19:37] And through that brain tumor, that was the ability that I had to begin witnessing to my girls who were still babies. I think it planted a seed with them then. Lauren was five at the time and she actually came to me one day and she had made a little paper airplane that I still have. And it has little hearts all over it. And it says, to mommy from Jesus.

[00:20:04] And she told me, she said, mommy, I heard you asking God to just send you a paper airplane to help you find a surgeon before I had the, we had decided where to go for the surgery. And I thought, wow, this little paper airplane from a five-year-old saying to mommy from Jesus. Oh my goodness. It was, it was amazing. And obviously I had the surgery, no side effects. And they still monitor it, but it's all good.

[00:20:34] I have stories throughout the cancer, but the brain tumor was the time this really, my relationship with Christ took off in a whole different way. Julie, during this time, your relationship with Christ was deepening and growing. What did that look like? I had always had God in my heart and I got to know Jesus even more deeply when I was baptized.

[00:21:01] But when you're looking at a life and death situation and I could feel the presence of God in that hospital room. I started at that point, I had never been one to vocalize my faith and share like I should have.

[00:21:20] But after that, I started trying to give any opportunity or accepting any opportunity I was given to go share about the goodness of Christ. And I had never done that before. It's a growing confidence is what it sounds like. Yes, absolutely.

[00:21:43] And the more confidence I get through Christ, the more I can share with others and the more I can say, oh, listen, you know, you got diagnosed with cancer. Let me tell you about it. Don't panic. It's okay. You know, and I realize everyone's diagnosis is very different. But, you know, in that way, hopefully I can encourage someone to keep your eyes on Jesus and don't ever look away.

[00:22:11] How do these experiences affect your approach to the other things, the other difficulties that you have faced in life? Oh, that's a good question. Well, the way I handle other difficulties in life after going through three cancer diagnosis and a brain tumor diagnosis is, you know what, y'all?

[00:22:33] Well, if God has led me through life-threatening illnesses four times, how can I not trust him to help me with, you know, whether I need a new job or I need to figure out what to do about other situations? Everything I do is in Christ. If my kids have a need or any of our kids have a need, I know God is there for them.

[00:23:02] And I want to show them through my life and let Jesus shine his light through me to give them the confidence and the faith that no matter what they come across in the future or in their lives, you just got to talk to God and he's right there for you.

[00:23:18] You know, Julie, a lot of people that go through cancer diagnosis or really anything with difficult situations, difficult sort of rocky roads, they tend to have songs or verses that help them through that time. Were there any songs or verses that really ministered to you through those difficult days? Absolutely.

[00:23:42] And the cool thing about the songs, whatever songs seem to be popular at the time, you know, in Christian music, I could find a meaning in every one of them. From my brain tumor, I really clung to Psalm 9, verse 9 and 10. Of course, in John 3, 16, Jeremiah 1, 5 was big and it still is to me because, you know, I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb.

[00:24:11] And I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. I know that God has had this plan for me since before I was in the womb. So, you know, I remember whether I like it or not, whether or whether it's what I would have planned for my life or not, doesn't mean that that's the way it should be. Oh, and a big two really big ones as well. Jeremiah 1, 9 and Isaiah 41, 10.

[00:24:39] And the message version of Isaiah 41, 10, I really like because it says, I picked you. I haven't dropped you. Don't panic. I'm with you. There's no need to fear for I'm your God. I'll give you strength. I'll help you. I'll hold you steady and keep a firm grip on you. And that verse, y'all, I just imagine God holding me like he did in that hospital room in Little Rock, Arkansas, that I know he's holding me.

[00:25:09] And the 23rd Psalm, my husband was, he would encourage me with that verse. He said, Julie, think about the 23rd Psalm. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. To me, that's a psalm for funerals. You know, I don't want to think about that because that's how I relate that psalm. But recently, our pastor at our church did a lesson on that. And he helped me to see that verse through a whole different set of eyes. And now I love it.

[00:25:37] I love thy rod and thy staff comfort me. And oh, did they comfort me always. And as far as gospel songs, I love gospel music. If y'all ever hear of a good gospel music concert in town, just let me know. Good old fashioned revival sing along. I'm there. Laura's story. When I first got started with this, with the cancer, what if your blessings come through raindrops,

[00:26:02] caused raindrops to become a sign for me of God watching over me? And the day, there are two very special stories about the raindrops I'd forgotten about. When we went to tell my girls that I had been diagnosed with cancer and I was praying about it. And I was, you know, I hated to tell them, but I've been very upfront with them all along. They were waiting to meet us for dinner downtown.

[00:26:31] And on our way out of the blue, and I'm telling you this, it was out of the blue. It just started raining. It was like, oh, there's one of my God winks. I know that God's watching over me. And he did it again one day when I had my hair. I went to have my hair cut after my third surgery for cancer. And, you know, going to see your hairdresser for the ladies, that's a big deal. That makes you feel better immediately.

[00:26:59] And I was having a really hard time. And I thought, I'm just going to go get my hair cut. Maybe it'll help. And after I got my hair cut, I went out to my car and it was parked right in front of the little salon where I get my hair cut. There were drops of water all over my car. And it wasn't raining. Nobody else's car parked right around me had a drop of water on it. And I went inside and got my friend Lisa. And I said, look at my car.

[00:27:29] We had just prayed before I left getting my hair cut. And I said, God's got this. He's still got me. Because you do get kind of, it's easy to get in a, you know, invite people to a pity party when you're going through all this. And I just try not to allow myself to stay there for long. But I was in one. And as soon as I walked out to my car, there were the raindrops.

[00:27:55] So Laura Story's raindrop song is a big one for me. You know, Julie, you know, if I ever got a bad diagnosis or bad news, I think you're probably the person I want in the room with me to walk me through that. And so just thinking about that, you know, what would you say to someone who has just lost a job, received a scary diagnosis, just received bad news?

[00:28:23] What would your words be to that person? I think the first thing I would just tell them is get on your knees and you cry out to God. It's okay to be upset and angry and not understand. But you've got to get on your knees and cry out and pray and pray and pray some more. And I think something I've learned from all this, too, is that don't be afraid to ask other

[00:28:53] people to pray for you. And just you've got to surround yourself with people who love you and who will encourage you through it all because nothing happens that that God's not aware of. And he's going to be right there for us. So I just thought about something else I did want to say on that question about someone

[00:29:16] who's just gotten a bad diagnosis that as hard as it is to believe, I am so grateful for this plan that God had for me that I had no idea was coming. If this illness and the light of Jesus shine through me so I can help other people, it's worth every second of sickness. And it's nothing compared to what Christ did for us.

[00:29:41] So, you know, you want to try to hold on to what is God going to try to teach me through this? And that would be the best thing I could say is to pray and ask God what it is he wants to teach you. That's excellent wisdom. You know, if you had the opportunity and you could go back to the beginning of your journey and give advice to yourself, what, if any, would you give?

[00:30:11] The advice I would give to myself is understand why God doesn't allow us to see into the future. There's a reason God only allows us to see one day at a time. If I hadn't had any idea what was going to happen over these past five years, I don't know what I would have done. So I would just, just, I think I would just remind myself to just take this one day at

[00:30:39] a time and to let other people help you. That was very hard for me at the beginning of all this. I don't like to ask people for help. And when you're in a tough situation, whether it's a financial or a health situation, a tough job situation, let other people help you. That's why God put us there to be the hands and feet of Jesus for each other.

[00:31:04] When I look back and think with everything I've been through, and I just honestly look at the scars on my body. Oh, they're, they're rough. But I look at them as those are my roadmap to Jesus. Because I can tell you with every line and every scar and every place on my body right now where I've had all these surgeries, I can tell you a story about how Jesus has worked in my life.

[00:31:30] So I would, guess I would tell myself to just be prepared for, you won't be wearing a bikini again anytime soon. Let's just say that. So. And Julie, is there, you know, obviously you, there's a lot to consider and remember and try and convey to an audience or even just to me. But, you know, is there anything in just recalling some of what we've talked about that you feel

[00:31:56] like you would want to share with people who are listening, who could be facing a myriad of, of, of different circumstances and issues? I would tell them to think about it this way. I am so humbled that God chose me to walk this path to give him the glory during these illnesses because it's all about him. When you think about it, it's really humbling that I feel like, you know, I was kind of like

[00:32:26] Job and he looked at me and he said, I'm going to give this to Julie because I know she's going to give me the glory from all of it, you know, and if there's just one person that I can lead to Christ through what I've been through, it is all worth it. You know, when I go to that next appointment in two weeks, if God asked me to walk through it again, I'll have my day or two.

[00:32:56] Oh God, please not again. And you know, that's the human side of me, please not again. And then I'll pick my head up and I will call on my prayer warrior friends and I will look to those who can help me and say, all right, God, what's next? Let's do this. And I've got a whole bunch of memes on my phone in the folder called Jesus. And there are some of them are funny and some of them are Bible verses I've seen and just great memes.

[00:33:22] But one of them I have, it's a picture of Billy Graham sitting in a chair at his home. And he said, I've read the last page of the Bible and it's all going to turn out all right. So that's how I choose to see this. It's all going to turn out all right. And I hope to know that I'll be in the streets of heaven one day and get to see my dad and my grandparents.

[00:33:48] Julie, we're all sort of facing whatever this trials that we're going through in isolation and quarantine through COVID-19. Now, we've heard about your health trials. How has what you have been through affect or help influence going through something like this? Well, I've been wearing a mask for a long time. So that's nothing new. And I've had gloves forever.

[00:34:18] But with the COVID-19 scenario, I am considered high risk. So while I'm cautious, I'm not stopping my life for this because I know that God has this in control. And I think he's got a great lesson for us to learn through it all. But I still continue to go out. I'm in the process of looking for a mask, honestly, you know, with a Bible verse or a cross to hopefully start a conversation with people that see it.

[00:34:49] I am trying to be very careful, but I'm not going to let it stop me from trying to tell people about Jesus. And that's where I can still use my Facebook platform. So I do want to be careful, but I don't think God wants me to hole up in my house from now till whenever this is over. I still have people that I need to tell about Jesus. Well, Julie, it has been a great privilege and an honor to have you on Candid. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us.

[00:35:19] Well, I've enjoyed it. And I just, I want for anybody going through anything tough, just keep your eyes on Jesus and just know that anything we're going through with the COVID or a health issue or financial issue is nothing compared to what Jesus did for us on the cross. So thank you very much for having me.

[00:35:43] And I just, I hope everyone stays healthy and well and stay close to your Savior. Great closing line. Thank you for joining us today. Candid is a podcast from Leading the Way with Dr. Michael Youssef. If you liked today's episode, please share it with a friend, leave a review and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.

[00:36:10] By subscribing, you make sure you never miss an episode. It's delivered to you as soon as we release it. Don't forget to connect with our social media pages on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Visit ltw.org slash candid to connect with these pages, share your questions with me, and get this week's free download. Why? Suffering in Light of the Gospel. As always, thank you for listening to and sharing this episode.

[00:36:39] I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef. Thanks for listening. tribune down, we'll see you next time. We'll see you next time. Peace. Peace. Peace.