Becoming Free Indeed: Jeremy and Jinger Vuolo on Faith, Fear, and Freedom (271)

[00:00:01] It was so masterful in the way he did it, really. I think any false teacher will do it. They'll take elements of truth and twist it for their own gain or for their own motives.

[00:00:18] Hello and welcome to Candid where we never settle for less than the truth. I'm your host, Jonathan Youssef. Each week we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions, and take a candid look at the Christian faith.

[00:00:32] Would you mind leaving us a review today? By leaving a review and a rating, it helps others to find us and it would be a huge help.

[00:00:41] Using your favorite podcast platform, go to our show and leave a rating along with a review as we seek to expand our audience.

[00:00:51] You might remember TLC's most popular hit TV show, 19 Kids and Counting.

[00:00:57] With 2.3 million viewers, the show highlighted the Duggar family who are devout Christians.

[00:01:05] Each episode showed the unique daily routine of what it's like to raise 19 children.

[00:01:11] The joys and the challenges they faced as their family grew up from toddlers to teens and from courtship to marriage.

[00:01:21] Today we have two special guests returning, Jeremy and Ginger Vuolo.

[00:01:26] Ginger is the sixth child in the Duggar family and Jeremy is a former professional soccer player.

[00:01:33] Over the last year and a half, I have been privileged to get to know Jeremy and Ginger and their two girls from my time in Los Angeles.

[00:01:41] Ginger just released her new book, Becoming Free Indeed, my story of disentangling fear from faith,

[00:01:50] in which she describes the biblical inconsistencies and error from the teaching of Bill Gothard and the Institute of Basic Life Principles,

[00:01:59] which formed the world that Ginger grew up with in the Duggar home.

[00:02:03] Because of the prominence of Gothard's teaching and seminars, many Christians have been impacted in negative ways,

[00:02:12] leading many to deconstruct their faith.

[00:02:15] But is deconstruction the only option?

[00:02:19] Join Ginger, Jeremy and I as we discuss what it looks like to disentangle false ideology from biblical truth.

[00:02:27] How that process has renewed Ginger's faith and helped her find true freedom in Christ.

[00:02:35] I pray this episode encourages you to look deeper into your own heart.

[00:02:40] Are you following Christ out of fear?

[00:02:43] Are you justified by doing good works?

[00:02:45] None of these can save you.

[00:02:48] Only the blood of Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins, makes you free indeed.

[00:02:55] Well, today we have special guests, return guests, Ginger Duggar Vuolo and her husband, Jeremy Vuolo.

[00:03:03] And today, as we alluded to in our previous interview,

[00:03:08] we are discussing Ginger's new book, Becoming Free Indeed, My Story of Disentangling Faith from Fear.

[00:03:18] Ginger, Jeremy, the JVs, thanks for coming on to Candid Conversation.

[00:03:23] Thanks for having us.

[00:03:24] Yeah, glad to be back.

[00:03:25] Okay.

[00:03:26] So, this book is, I told you, you had sent me a copy and I was reading it on the airplane on my flight home.

[00:03:34] I literally, I couldn't put it down.

[00:03:36] I was so intrigued in the story of the history of Bill Gothard and IBLP and it was just unbelievable.

[00:03:46] And there's many people, I think, who will be listening to this who are familiar with Bill Gothard's ministry, with IBLP.

[00:03:52] You know, there were even notable preachers who were sending their people to go to these conferences because it was helping parents with answers.

[00:04:02] Your story, Ginger, is behind TLC's 19 Kids and Counting.

[00:04:07] You've grown up in the fishbowl.

[00:04:09] Your faith was very much in your home and broadcast to the world, something that you were really kind of almost unfamiliar with to some extent.

[00:04:17] And so, there's this juxtaposition of things that are going on in your life.

[00:04:22] And I'll let you take the story from there in terms of setting up the title of the book.

[00:04:26] I think it'll be a great segue into the conversation today.

[00:04:29] Yeah.

[00:04:30] So, it is interesting how my life was very public and so a lot of people had a lot of opinions about how they wanted me to live my life in the public eye.

[00:04:42] And one of those groups was formed.

[00:04:47] It was called Free Ginger.

[00:04:48] It was a Free Ginger forum.

[00:04:50] And basically, this group thought that by watching the show, they saw me as a young kid and thought, okay, Ginger wants to be freed from this life that she's in.

[00:05:01] And all of these rules and regulations that came to me by the teacher that I followed, Bill Gothard, and they thought, she needs to be freed from this.

[00:05:09] And so, they would take certain hints, they thought, me rolling my eyes or just having fun.

[00:05:16] Like, they thought, okay, this girl wants to be freed.

[00:05:19] She loves, she wants to move to a big city.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:21] Let's get her out.

[00:05:22] But they want me also to throw off Christianity.

[00:05:26] Right.

[00:05:26] And that's kind of where the Free Ginger movement started.

[00:05:30] And I knew about that as a kid.

[00:05:33] But it wasn't until I was older that as I was coming out of the teachings, which we'll get more into later, the teachings that I was raised under, then I started to see, oh, I think they really genuinely cared about me and saw what I was in and thought that's damaging and wanted me to come out.

[00:05:53] But I landed at a different place.

[00:05:55] I landed a different conclusion, which is not throwing off Christianity, not abandoning my faith, but running to Jesus, running to Christ.

[00:06:04] And so, Free Ginger, we thought the word free needs to be in here.

[00:06:09] Yeah.

[00:06:09] In the book somewhere, we end up landing on the title Becoming Free Indeed.

[00:06:14] And there was almost a reaction to that whole message board website thing that was existing, right?

[00:06:21] I mean, from Bill Gothard himself.

[00:06:23] Is that, am I remembering that correctly?

[00:06:25] It was like Ginger is free indeed.

[00:06:27] Wasn't there a shirt or something that you?

[00:06:29] So, there was another Christian leader at that time who saw that forum and thought, hmm, I see a different side.

[00:06:38] So, I would see that Ginger is free within this system, within these principles.

[00:06:42] Ginger is already free.

[00:06:43] So, she doesn't need to be freed from the life that the Free Ginger movement thought she does.

[00:06:48] Right.

[00:06:48] And so, he would look at those rules and restraints and say, oh, this is good.

[00:06:51] Ginger is already free.

[00:06:53] And yet, both sides, the man who thought I was already free and the Free Ginger movement both were wrong.

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:07:00] I wasn't free in the way that I was where I am now and where I'm walking with Jesus now.

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:06] So, it was interesting.

[00:07:08] Very interesting upbringing.

[00:07:08] Well, and let's talk about the concept of disentangling, which I absolutely love that word because, you know, the popular word right now is deconstructing.

[00:07:20] And I think a lot of people, it's a misnomer in some sense.

[00:07:24] There are some people, and we'll talk about some of them, who are deconstructing their faith in a destructive way.

[00:07:32] And there are people who use it in the sense of what you mean, I think, which is disentangling.

[00:07:38] So, let's talk a little bit about some of the aspects that come through in a Bill Gothard teaching that has truth perhaps at the core or somewhere in there, but it's layered with other philosophies and other thoughts that are unhelpful.

[00:07:59] So, even just maybe one or two examples from the book to help our listeners understand what it is that you mean by that.

[00:08:08] Yeah.

[00:08:08] So, first starting off with the deconstruction versus, you know, disentangling.

[00:08:12] Going back with that, I think that whenever I was working through all of this stuff, I wasn't going to take just one person's word.

[00:08:23] Like, Jeremy came on the scene and was a huge help for me to be able to, like, see that this teaching wasn't Bible teaching.

[00:08:32] And that was enough to, like, make me think, oh, wait, what do you mean?

[00:08:36] Like, it's not Bible teaching because I always thought Bill Gothard was a Bible teacher.

[00:08:40] He had to listen to 60 plus hours of these teachings before we can move forward in our relationship, which was actually a huge help because I needed to be able to see through it for myself.

[00:08:51] Yes.

[00:08:52] To be able to start on this journey of disentangling.

[00:08:56] But sadly, like you said, so many have turned to deconstruction as the answer and have thought, okay, if I just tear apart my faith, you know, all the way, tear it down to the studs.

[00:09:09] I'm never to rebuild it again.

[00:09:11] That is the answer because a lot of people have been harmed by either someone who claimed to speak for God but didn't or a certain religious system.

[00:09:22] And so they're reacting to that and thinking this is the only answer.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:26] Just tear apart your faith.

[00:09:27] It's all bad.

[00:09:29] We throw it all out.

[00:09:30] It's all bad.

[00:09:31] Yeah.

[00:09:31] And I think, like you said, so many people have used that word in a way where they're like, okay, well, they're not doing that, but they've still used the deconstruction word.

[00:09:41] But disentangling may be a better option because it's when you're separating truth from error.

[00:09:48] It takes time.

[00:09:49] It's like if you have putty stuck in your hair, you're going to take the time to, like, pick out the putty instead of just shave your head.

[00:09:56] And it takes so long.

[00:09:57] It's so painful.

[00:09:58] It's hard.

[00:09:59] It's a slow process.

[00:10:00] And that's exactly what I've been walking through the past six years now.

[00:10:07] And it's so worth it.

[00:10:09] And I think it's so sad to see how many have just totally rejected Christianity altogether because they've been hurt within the system.

[00:10:19] Let's talk about the impetus to start writing a book like this.

[00:10:24] Yeah.

[00:10:25] So I had visited a conference that Bill Gothard had started many years before.

[00:10:32] This was in 2017.

[00:10:34] Shortly after we were married, we had been married less than a year.

[00:10:38] And I had been a year into working through some of these teachings because when we were engaged, we were talking about some of these principles that Bill Gothard talked about and trying to.

[00:10:50] I was trying to come out of that, but I was not there yet.

[00:10:54] So whenever I walked into this conference, it was interesting.

[00:10:57] That was always my safe place.

[00:10:58] That was the place I would go to find community.

[00:11:02] That's where all my friends were.

[00:11:03] So throughout the years, I remember even the first time when I met Jeremy was at one of those conferences.

[00:11:10] He had popped in there to see my brother-in-law, Ben.

[00:11:14] He wasn't coming to the conference to attend.

[00:11:16] And so when we were there, that's where we actually first met.

[00:11:19] It was crazy.

[00:11:21] So he shows up and he should tell you a bit about that.

[00:11:24] It was interesting because he shows up at this conference having no clue who Bill Gothard was, no clue what this place was.

[00:11:32] Shock.

[00:11:32] And at first, you know, it hits you.

[00:11:35] I thought I was stepping into like this utopian world because everyone dresses the same.

[00:11:41] Everyone's over the top happy.

[00:11:43] And at first, I'm just like, hey, guys, what's up?

[00:11:46] This is great.

[00:11:48] Everybody's super stoked.

[00:11:51] And it was interesting because Ben and I, even that conference started to have some conversations because I'm just trying to get my head around things.

[00:11:58] Like, so what is this?

[00:11:59] You know, where are we?

[00:12:02] And, you know, I started to see some things like, oh, it's interesting that everybody seems to have the same exact convictions about everything.

[00:12:11] And then when you ask them about it, they go, well, these are just my personal convictions.

[00:12:14] I go, that's funny because 2,000 other people have the exact same.

[00:12:18] So does that guy.

[00:12:19] Yeah.

[00:12:20] Unlike all these, you know, this isn't the Bible, but this is just my personal conviction.

[00:12:24] Oh, okay.

[00:12:24] So it was interesting stepping into that.

[00:12:27] Uniformism.

[00:12:27] Yeah.

[00:12:27] But like Ginger said, I was just there to hang out with Ben and I had a great few days.

[00:12:32] Ben and Jessa, we hung out, just went everywhere, met some people, got food.

[00:12:37] Um, this was back in 2015.

[00:12:40] 15.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:41] That was two years before.

[00:12:43] So 2017, we show up at the conference to see my family because we were living in Texas.

[00:12:49] And you're married at this point?

[00:12:51] Yeah, we were married and we were living in Texas.

[00:12:53] And so they came to Texas for the conference.

[00:12:57] So we went over to visit.

[00:12:58] And when we were there, I remember just looking around and I was like, this utopia, this world

[00:13:06] that I knew now, instead of looking at it with such joy and like, wow, this is the best

[00:13:12] thing, Jeremy, like, let's come raise our kids here too.

[00:13:16] Like it shook me because I was, I was just saddened.

[00:13:19] Yeah.

[00:13:19] Like, I was just like, I want you guys to know that, that this is not what it looks like

[00:13:27] to be pleasing to God is to be for everybody to be cookie cutters, all the same, to follow

[00:13:33] man-made teaching, to follow one man and say that his words are the words of God.

[00:13:38] Yeah.

[00:13:39] And I think anytime you have a teacher who claims to have some, some special element on

[00:13:44] of truth, something outside of the Bible where he says, oh, this is just, I'm going

[00:13:49] to have a special corner on truth.

[00:14:02] Yeah.

[00:14:03] Yes.

[00:14:03] You can't have this special corner on truth.

[00:14:05] The word of God is sufficient.

[00:14:07] And that's where I think speaking when scripture speaks, being silent where scripture is silent

[00:14:12] is something that I started to notice was missing from that circle.

[00:14:18] So what were the things that were helping you to see this movement?

[00:14:24] You know, I wonder if it's worth our time to explain Bill Gothard and IBLP a little bit.

[00:14:31] So he's sort of come out of evangelicalism.

[00:14:34] He was at Wheaton College and he starts this Institute of Basic Life Principles, right?

[00:14:40] And then he's kind of becomes a really prominent.

[00:14:43] I'll let you fill in the gaps because I know you know the story better.

[00:14:46] Yeah.

[00:14:46] So Bill Gothard came on the scene in the 60s and 70s.

[00:14:50] He was promising parents that their kids would be able to stay away from sex, drugs and rock

[00:14:56] and roll, which were the big thing.

[00:14:58] Sure.

[00:14:58] We're afraid.

[00:14:59] Like, what do we do to help our kids love Jesus?

[00:15:02] And so he said, I have the guarantee for success for your family.

[00:15:07] And he promised them that they would have successful families, health, wealth.

[00:15:14] And basically it was almost the health, wealth and prosperity, which we would have totally

[00:15:18] rejected in our minds.

[00:15:21] But it was just twisted just enough to where it seemed like it was okay.

[00:15:25] But he came on the scene saying that this was going to help your family to avoid all

[00:15:31] the pitfalls and devastation that everyone else would face outside of the system.

[00:15:36] So families were drawn to that.

[00:15:38] Parents thought, of course, any parent wants to have a black and white answer of how your

[00:15:42] kids are supposed to do everything.

[00:15:44] Right.

[00:15:44] I mean, literally everything.

[00:15:46] So he would map it all out for you and say, just follow this and you're going to be

[00:15:51] fine.

[00:15:51] But sadly, I think throughout the years, parents started to see their kids weren't turning out.

[00:15:58] They were not only not turning out, they were rejecting the Christian faith altogether.

[00:16:04] And it was way worse than it was in the beginning.

[00:16:09] And so I think why that happened is because Bill Gothard placed it all on the outward and

[00:16:16] he missed regeneration.

[00:16:17] He missed the heart of the gospel, which transforms us from the inside out.

[00:16:22] Instead, he said, just follow these outward things.

[00:16:25] Don't go into debt.

[00:16:26] Don't drink alcohol.

[00:16:27] Don't put your kids in school.

[00:16:28] Homeschool them.

[00:16:29] Have these certain modesty standards.

[00:16:31] Have your kids do courtship.

[00:16:34] And all of these things will gain you favor with God, gain you blessing, and you'll be okay.

[00:16:41] And it's just not the case.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:45] And it's rude.

[00:16:46] It's Phariseeism, right?

[00:16:47] It's like if you follow these rules and laws, then you'll earn God's favor.

[00:16:52] He'll be happy with you.

[00:16:53] You'll have a happy life.

[00:16:54] Just like you said, it is a form of the prosperity gospel, but for conservative families across

[00:17:02] America.

[00:17:03] And it really was bought and sold even by large evangelical preachers and has consequences

[00:17:10] to this day.

[00:17:10] And I think it's in your first chapter, you mentioned Joshua Harris, who was sort of the

[00:17:15] poster boy.

[00:17:16] I don't know if he wasn't the poster boy of IBLP, was he?

[00:17:19] But he was a poster boy of like the courtship idea.

[00:17:22] The purity culture.

[00:17:23] Yeah, the whole purity culture.

[00:17:25] Let's take him as an example, since he's very much a public figure.

[00:17:30] He's been on podcasts and shows.

[00:17:32] He has deconstructed in the sense of I am abandoning God and Orthodox Christianity in all degrees.

[00:17:41] Let's talk a little bit about that and those foundations that sort of failed him from these

[00:17:48] man-made structures.

[00:17:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:52] It's interesting because I think Bill Gothard, whenever he would teach his seminars, like

[00:17:58] you said, it drew people from all different backgrounds.

[00:18:01] And I remember going to conference and we would have people there who were Mennonite, Catholic,

[00:18:06] you know, like Bible-believing Christians.

[00:18:09] You had this interesting mesh of people.

[00:18:11] We used to go to the stadiums where he would fill up stadiums in Knoxville.

[00:18:15] I remember being a young kid, and that was one of my earlier memories, was going to that

[00:18:19] conference, and it was like, this is so huge.

[00:18:21] And we saw that, like he brought together all these different groups because it was so

[00:18:27] masterful in the way he did it, really.

[00:18:29] I think any false teacher will do it.

[00:18:31] They'll take elements of truth and twist it for their own gain or for their own motives.

[00:18:38] And that's exactly what Bill Gothard did.

[00:18:41] So he would set up all these rules based on one text that he pulled out of context.

[00:18:47] So he would have one verse and he would build his whole theory on it.

[00:18:51] So if it was about, he would say like, man shall not live by bread alone.

[00:18:57] Therefore, we need more fiber in our diet.

[00:18:59] And he would go into the whole thing about health, about the kind of bread mixture you

[00:19:03] needed to buy.

[00:19:05] And he would do that in multiple areas.

[00:19:09] And it was so damaging because not only would he give you one verse and tell you something,

[00:19:15] like if it was not going into debt, he would immediately turn it back.

[00:19:19] If you were at the seminar, turn it back and say, okay, so now you need to commit to this.

[00:19:25] You need to make a vow to God to keep this principle that you've seen in scripture now.

[00:19:29] Now that I gave one verse to support it, make this vow and God will bring blessing on your

[00:19:35] life.

[00:19:35] And then he would say, make sure you pay that vow to God.

[00:19:39] Don't forsake it or God will destroy your life.

[00:19:41] So he was very binding in the way he did that.

[00:19:44] But it was all the outward stuff.

[00:19:47] Like he would think of things that you and I won't even talk about now and how he would

[00:19:52] bind your conscience to something that was not in scripture.

[00:19:55] So I think people moving from that then into the purity culture, it all seems good.

[00:20:01] It all seems wholesome on the outside.

[00:20:03] It's like, of course we want kids to be pure.

[00:20:06] Of course we want them to honor God and their relationships and save the physical side for

[00:20:11] marriage.

[00:20:12] Like that, that's a good thing.

[00:20:13] Those are the truths, right?

[00:20:15] And that's the truth of scripture.

[00:20:16] But they get wrapped up in the man-made law that you've just described of what God

[00:20:21] intended.

[00:20:21] Yes.

[00:20:22] And so then at that point, it's scripture is not enough.

[00:20:25] Scripture cannot lead us.

[00:20:27] So we have to add to that.

[00:20:28] So yes, the Bible talks about purity.

[00:20:31] It talks about saving that for marriage, the physical side of things.

[00:20:35] But he goes on and adds to it because they're like, it's the slippery slope argument of if

[00:20:41] you get too close to the edge, then you're just going to go down this slope of like, if you

[00:20:46] hold hands, then you're immediately going to go further.

[00:20:50] Or if you don't have a chaperone, you can't withstand temptation.

[00:20:54] So you have to add to it because they're afraid the scripture is not enough.

[00:20:59] And I think that's where you have, even with all of the purity culture, it becomes this whole

[00:21:06] thing and people build their lives upon it and think, okay, this is going to protect us.

[00:21:12] And it's just not the case.

[00:21:14] Like I said, it all starts in the heart.

[00:21:16] As Christians, we want to glorify God.

[00:21:18] And so we come to the word of God to see how we do that.

[00:21:23] And sadly, I think so many families are seeing now the repercussions of that where you haven't

[00:21:29] equipped your kids to look at the word of God and say, this is enough.

[00:21:33] And then kids are like, well, what is the word of God?

[00:21:35] And what is just your opinion?

[00:21:37] And I think there needs to be a distinction made there.

[00:21:40] Okay, this is a good segue from that.

[00:21:42] So let's talk about what that did for you in your view of God growing up, because this

[00:21:50] is kind of where the subtitle of the book comes in, right?

[00:21:53] Where it's about fear and that you have this sort of foundation of who you understand God

[00:22:00] to be in this world of God's truths mixed with what man tells you you need to do and how

[00:22:07] you dress and all the way down the list.

[00:22:09] It was interesting because when I first, we were really first talking about it, it was hard

[00:22:17] for me to disentangle the truth about God as loving Heavenly Father and seeing how He views

[00:22:26] His children, because I was always afraid of God.

[00:22:30] Even once I was a believer, I thought, okay, well, I don't feel like I know what God requires

[00:22:35] of me.

[00:22:36] I feel like it's left up to my emotions or my feelings that day to discover what God wants

[00:22:41] me to do or not to do.

[00:22:43] And it has taken me years.

[00:22:45] And there are still some days where it's hard, where I'll start thinking that way.

[00:22:51] And then I have to be reminded of truth and say, okay, as a child of God, there's forgiveness

[00:22:57] in Jesus Christ.

[00:22:59] And there's also grace.

[00:23:01] And I think that element was missing in most of Gothard's teaching.

[00:23:07] It was all about you keeping yourself right before God in more of what felt like a works

[00:23:14] based performance.

[00:23:17] And that's...

[00:23:18] Which is what every faith is apart from Christianity, right?

[00:23:20] Yes.

[00:23:21] It is.

[00:23:22] They all end up with works based.

[00:23:24] Because that's where we can feel good about ourselves.

[00:23:27] Right.

[00:23:28] And the message of...

[00:23:29] We're trying to work our way back into the Garden of Eden.

[00:23:31] Yeah.

[00:23:32] And the message of the gospel is the exact opposite, that we can bring nothing to the

[00:23:36] table.

[00:23:37] We are bringing our filth and our sin before Jesus on our own.

[00:23:41] We have to die.

[00:23:42] Yeah.

[00:23:43] And so the start of it was just realizing, okay, these teachings are false.

[00:23:48] And then coming to the word of God to read it for what it is.

[00:23:51] It was challenging though, because you take these years of teachings and you're reading

[00:23:58] the same passages, but in a different way.

[00:24:02] Totally different.

[00:24:03] Yeah.

[00:24:04] Trying to restructure, reorient my mind to think on what the word of God actually says and to

[00:24:10] believe that.

[00:24:10] Yeah.

[00:24:11] Because it's...

[00:24:12] Yeah.

[00:24:12] I think most of it is like condemnation and false guilt from years of leaning into Gothard's

[00:24:21] teaching.

[00:24:22] And so it's taken years for me to see, okay, I see what the Bible says about sin and I want

[00:24:30] to live a holy life.

[00:24:32] But then also at the same time, just seeing the grace of God in a whole new way.

[00:24:37] It's been so freeing.

[00:24:39] And I'll say just as an, you know, having the outside perspective and watching her on this

[00:24:43] journey.

[00:24:44] Right.

[00:24:44] It's been amazing.

[00:24:45] But those early years together, just seeing her view of God change.

[00:24:50] I like watched it go from this God who's angry and just waiting for the opportunity to get

[00:24:57] her to being this warm, loving God who actually rejoices in her because she's in Christ.

[00:25:03] Yeah.

[00:25:04] And seeing that change in her and the freedom it brought her, the joy, you know, just throughout

[00:25:11] her normal day-to-day experience, it was like I was watching her, you know, walk gingerly,

[00:25:18] no pun intended, through her days, like not wanting to upset God.

[00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:24] And to see her come out of that and understand, wait a second, like he rejoices over me because

[00:25:30] he rejoices over Christ and I'm in Christ.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:33] Yeah.

[00:25:33] It was really beautiful to see.

[00:25:35] And so I've just, you know, had a front row seat to this journey.

[00:25:39] And I will say he's been so kind and patient with me too, because it's been hard because

[00:25:45] there are, you know, it's really difficult to like walk through all of that.

[00:25:49] I mean, it was your foundation.

[00:25:50] That was your life.

[00:25:52] It was.

[00:25:53] But he's been so patient and encouraging, like just challenging me to grow and learn, like,

[00:26:01] and also just to trust Jesus more when it's hard and rely on, just think on truth, like

[00:26:08] is the hardest thing.

[00:26:10] Whenever you've had a teacher who's just said all kinds of stuff that just was not based

[00:26:15] in the Bible.

[00:26:16] But Jeremy's been so kind and patient with me throughout this journey, which I'm just so

[00:26:20] grateful for.

[00:26:21] Jeremy, I'm interested to get your perspective again as an outsider.

[00:26:25] So you described meeting up with Ben and Jessa at the conference and you sort of your observations

[00:26:32] of that.

[00:26:33] Okay.

[00:26:34] But then you're there's sort of this entering into courtship, what have you with Ginger.

[00:26:39] What were your immediate impressions of IBLP, Gothard?

[00:26:46] I mean, were you seeing straight through it right away or was it did it take time?

[00:26:49] And how did you navigate all that?

[00:26:52] Yeah.

[00:26:53] When I was asked to watch and start watching the Gothard lectures, I had a response that

[00:26:59] I think a lot of evangelical Christians had when Gothard first came on the scene.

[00:27:03] I just thought, okay, he's got some interesting things to say.

[00:27:06] He kind of starts out his seminars.

[00:27:07] I think I started on the advanced seminar and not the basic.

[00:27:11] And at the start of the advanced, he starts out with some lectures on humanism, defining

[00:27:17] humanism.

[00:27:17] And then he gives a couple passages to demonstrate, you know, the Bible stands opposed to humanism.

[00:27:23] And I'm just thinking, oh, okay, this has got some good stuff to say.

[00:27:26] Again, I was really naive to it.

[00:27:28] Sure.

[00:27:29] And I'm grateful for that because as I was interested in Ginger, I was willing to listen

[00:27:34] to these teachings and interact with them.

[00:27:37] But then, you know, as it gets going, you start to realize, oh, wait a second.

[00:27:42] What did he just say?

[00:27:44] And it's almost like pulling the thread.

[00:27:46] And you just start realizing, wow, he said some really problematic things.

[00:27:50] Yeah.

[00:27:52] Yeah.

[00:27:52] No one was signing up for the free Jeremy website to free you from having to watch 60 hours

[00:27:59] of Bill Goddard lectures.

[00:28:02] I just signed up for you.

[00:28:04] I think you talk about this in your book as well.

[00:28:06] That helped me understand Ginger.

[00:28:09] Yeah.

[00:28:09] Oh, yeah.

[00:28:10] Right.

[00:28:10] You would have been worlds apart had it not been for that.

[00:28:14] And not knowing why.

[00:28:14] Because part of it is like if you walk into a relationship and you talk about a lot of things,

[00:28:22] but the why behind it was missing.

[00:28:25] So if I had a certain view of God, it's like I could have these certain fears that were maybe

[00:28:32] blown up more than normal because I was raised in this system.

[00:28:37] He would have had no clue like why I viewed the world the way I did.

[00:28:42] Because like I've told this story multiple times because it is so insane.

[00:28:46] But Bill Goddard would tell a story of a woman whose two boys and husband went out to sea

[00:28:52] and they died at sea.

[00:28:54] And this pastor comes in and the woman's like, why did they die?

[00:28:58] And he said, it's the painting on your wall of the ship, the sailboat that made them want

[00:29:04] to go to sea to sail.

[00:29:06] And that's why they died.

[00:29:08] So very superstitious teaching.

[00:29:11] And that type of thing is how I viewed life.

[00:29:13] I viewed all of life like that.

[00:29:15] And it was helpful for Jared to be able to, for one, like when he heard some of those things,

[00:29:22] he'd be like, whoa, what did he just say?

[00:29:24] I think he fell out of his ear a couple times.

[00:29:27] Just so shocked as to like, how could you get there?

[00:29:31] And what basis do you have for saying that?

[00:29:34] And so I did view my entire life like that.

[00:29:37] And I was very fearful.

[00:29:39] So let me ask this, just to kind of follow the timeline.

[00:29:43] Was it during the courtship dating that, that you started to pull at the thread or was this,

[00:29:50] did this start to take place earlier?

[00:29:52] I had a little bit of a shift in how I read the Bible right before Jared came on the scene for my brother-in-law, Ben.

[00:30:01] I realized that his family did some things a little different than us.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] And that they still love Jesus and their lives weren't falling apart.

[00:30:11] And I was like, how is that possible?

[00:30:12] And so I kind of like took note of that for the first time.

[00:30:17] And also Ben, the way he read the Bible in their church did, it was different than ours.

[00:30:23] And so he, they would like walk verse by verse through the Bible and not try to explain away verses,

[00:30:31] but just preach the Bible as a whole.

[00:30:34] And that was something that I really appreciated.

[00:30:37] So that was a little bit before Jared came on the scene.

[00:30:41] So I started reading the Bible differently at that point, but I didn't at all understand that Bill Gothard was not a Bible teacher.

[00:30:50] And I still held to all of those teachings in my everyday life.

[00:30:55] We've talked in general about Gothard because, you know, a lot of this hinges on authority.

[00:31:00] And I know you have a chapter in the book that explains this sort of umbrella, I think is how you describe it, this umbrella authority.

[00:31:07] I wonder if you could walk us a little bit through that.

[00:31:09] Again, I don't want to give too much away from the book.

[00:31:11] It's well worth people buying and reading, even though it is in very feminine colors.

[00:31:17] Men should read it as well.

[00:31:18] Take off the dust jacket, Jonathan.

[00:31:20] Just take off the jacket and deal with the brown.

[00:31:23] Great.

[00:31:23] But I wonder if you could talk us through the authority and the umbrella model that sort of that comes out of this.

[00:31:30] Yeah, Bill Gothard, one of his main, I would say maybe one of the most important principles, what it felt like to me at least, was the umbrella of authority, umbrella of protection.

[00:31:43] Also, he would say that kids are under the protection of their parents.

[00:31:50] If they're under the protection of their parents.

[00:31:54] If you do anything that is something that maybe they didn't like or you say something bad, like you're taking yourself out from underneath that protection and Satan will have direct attack.

[00:32:08] You know, he can directly attack you.

[00:32:11] And that's what I thought was going to keep me safe.

[00:32:15] And so he would say, like, for women, they can't work outside the home at all unless you were working for him at his headquarters in Chicago.

[00:32:26] It's OK.

[00:32:26] Which is a strange.

[00:32:28] Yeah, but it's OK.

[00:32:29] You know, controversy.

[00:32:30] You just can't work.

[00:32:31] You can't work outside the home.

[00:32:32] You can work for your dad if he has a job or business.

[00:32:35] But you need to be under that protection, an umbrella of protection.

[00:32:39] And so even if you're 40 and not married, you still need to live at home because otherwise you're not under your parents protection.

[00:32:48] So that was something that I would look at other families and kids like if their kids moved outside the home.

[00:32:56] I think, yeah, but it's just a matter of time before everything's going to break down and you're going to be in trouble.

[00:33:03] That's how I would view others outside of the system because I thought they don't have that umbrella of protection over them.

[00:33:08] Yeah.

[00:33:09] Well, you know, in the book, you've got as you've already used the story of the family that died at sea, you know, he had the power of illustration and story that would really engage with people's minds.

[00:33:25] I mean, if he was teaching lessons on communications, he would be, you know, a premier teacher.

[00:33:30] But but the problem is he was using it for his own to get his false ideology out to people.

[00:33:36] Right. And he would say like very specifically, he said, life is a very delicate cause and effect sequence.

[00:33:42] And so basically, like you're in control of this.

[00:33:45] So if you step out of line the tiniest amount, it's like you're going to be destroyed.

[00:33:51] I want to be sensitive to this.

[00:33:53] But, you know, in the book, you do talk about your brother and you do there's some connections with the philosophy that Gothard had put out and what it does.

[00:34:04] Because, you know, as you've described, I mean, it is really the external righteousness versus internal transformation.

[00:34:13] And if you feel up to it, we could talk a little bit about your brother and his situation as it relates to.

[00:34:19] And I love the way you put it in the book that it's like it's not IBLP and Gothard who are responsible, that your brother is still responsible for what he's done.

[00:34:31] But it helps people understand the framework for how a life of an individual like this can go so far off track in terms of a culture of dealing with sin versus a culture of shaming sin and almost forcing sin to go deeper underground.

[00:34:44] So I wonder if we could just engage with that a little bit.

[00:34:46] Again, I don't want to I don't want to do too much, but just to give people a little bit framework.

[00:34:50] Right. I think that Bill Gothard's teachings, since they were so based on the externals, it's easy for people in that system to just lean so heavily on it that you have this front up.

[00:35:04] Everybody thinks you're a good Christian because you dress the right way.

[00:35:08] You don't listen to these certain kinds of music.

[00:35:10] You don't go certain places.

[00:35:11] You don't eat certain things or drink certain things.

[00:35:14] So you're OK.

[00:35:15] And yeah, it's interesting, even within the purity culture or what Bill Gothard taught, they would run far away from teaching kids very normal things that they should have known.

[00:35:27] And they run away from that saying, OK, we're going to run away from the world.

[00:35:31] We're going to isolate ourselves.

[00:35:33] We're going to be in this bubble and that will keep us safe.

[00:35:35] We weren't going to have any issues because we suppress all of that.

[00:35:39] We push it away instead of talking about it and dealing with it.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:44] And giving a biblical perspective on it, then I think that's where you could see maybe more of like a curiosity and a driving force for some of that.

[00:35:56] And like you said, it does not change the fact that people will own for their own sin.

[00:36:01] Yeah.

[00:36:02] It's on them that responsibility.

[00:36:04] And at the same time, I would say those outward things is a false view of what's actually happening in the heart.

[00:36:11] And for someone like my brother or even for Bill Gothard, I would pray that one day they would both come to know Jesus.

[00:36:21] And at the same time, they can't do that on their own.

[00:36:24] You can't put up any amount of standard will not save you from your sin.

[00:36:29] It won't change your heart.

[00:36:30] It will only mask it for a while until God exposes whatever's on the inside.

[00:36:35] It will come out.

[00:36:36] So true.

[00:36:38] Your book's doing great.

[00:36:39] You've been making the rounds.

[00:36:40] In fact, when I was with you guys in California and I asked, do you have any press coming up for your book?

[00:36:45] And literally in my mind, I was thinking Christianity Today, Christian Post, some Christian radio stations.

[00:36:51] And you said, good morning, America, People Magazine, Nightline.

[00:36:56] I realized you're in a different sphere than what I'm familiar with.

[00:37:01] So what's sort of been the general response to the book?

[00:37:05] I mean, even in these early days, you know, what are the things you're taking on?

[00:37:08] What are the things you're sort of encouraged by or even discouraged by?

[00:37:12] Yeah, I think it's been more encouraging than anything.

[00:37:16] It's also been tough.

[00:37:17] I think as soon as you release the book, you just don't know what responses you're going to get.

[00:37:22] And that's part of being in such a tight knit community.

[00:37:26] And that's why I'm just now writing this book.

[00:37:29] It's taken me years to come to the place where I feel like I can speak up about this.

[00:37:33] And I have felt that need for years, but just being able to do it finally now has been so good.

[00:37:41] Yeah, I think it's been really well received because I think so many people can relate to this story,

[00:37:49] even though they may not have had the exact same upbringing as me.

[00:37:54] They've been in a similar situation where a teacher has claimed to speak for God but didn't,

[00:37:59] or they were harmed by the church, or they're struggling in this almost workspace view of their salvation,

[00:38:10] if it was workspace in the start, or if it's just man-made rules that they feel like they have to keep up to gain favor with God.

[00:38:16] So I've heard so many stories like that of people who have been through similar things,

[00:38:22] and that's what's been encouraging just to hear the feedback so far,

[00:38:27] because I know that it's something that it's on a bigger scale than even the Gothard Circle.

[00:38:34] Sure.

[00:38:35] And I'm just grateful that I've had the opportunity to finally write this book.

[00:38:40] Yeah.

[00:38:41] Well, and I know the hope is probably exactly what you've described,

[00:38:45] people who have grown up either in that exact culture or something similar

[00:38:51] that they would read it and understand,

[00:38:54] because it is, it's an interpretive lens to help them see.

[00:38:57] You know, I wonder for the people who would just say,

[00:39:00] well, she met Jeremy,

[00:39:02] he has a different sort of theological framework and background,

[00:39:06] and that's just what she's gone to.

[00:39:08] Like, how do you kind of push against that in saying,

[00:39:11] you know, really what you found was an ultimate authority in Scripture,

[00:39:15] and that versus just a different, an alternative view.

[00:39:20] Yes.

[00:39:20] As much as the Lord used Jeremy to help me come out of this teaching,

[00:39:24] he also encouraged me from the start just to think for myself,

[00:39:29] because I think critical thinking was kind of missing in that setting,

[00:39:33] because you don't want to question the teachings,

[00:39:36] because it ultimately won't stand up against the Word of God,

[00:39:40] and it can't stand up for itself.

[00:39:42] So he just opened the Bible,

[00:39:45] and that is where my authority is.

[00:39:48] And so people who say,

[00:39:49] oh, it's all Jeremy's doing that she's at this place,

[00:39:52] it's just not the case.

[00:39:54] He has been used in a helpful way

[00:39:56] to help me to think for myself,

[00:39:58] to teach me, okay,

[00:40:00] like you need to be thinking critically through everything.

[00:40:04] And at the end of the day,

[00:40:05] I know that Jesus is my only hope,

[00:40:09] and that's where this journey started,

[00:40:12] was wanting to know,

[00:40:14] okay, what does the Bible say?

[00:40:15] And it's ended in the same place saying,

[00:40:17] this is what the Bible says.

[00:40:19] And it did not line up with Bill Gothard's teaching.

[00:40:22] And so for anyone still in that system,

[00:40:23] I would hope that they could come out

[00:40:25] and see that Jesus is a kind and loving Savior,

[00:40:29] and that they would come to know Him for who He truly is.

[00:40:33] Yeah.

[00:40:35] Before we go,

[00:40:37] I thought that runs through my head,

[00:40:38] and it's, you know,

[00:40:39] Gothard and Joshua Harris were popular

[00:40:42] because they were offering people sort of,

[00:40:44] hey, if you follow these rules,

[00:40:46] you'll get these outputs.

[00:40:47] If you do A and B,

[00:40:48] you will get C.

[00:40:50] That's something that parents

[00:40:52] and people of all walks of life

[00:40:55] will be chasing

[00:40:57] for as long as people are on this earth.

[00:40:59] I think you have a chapter about

[00:41:02] what you want your girls to know.

[00:41:04] So like for those parents who are out there

[00:41:06] who are like,

[00:41:06] I'll do anything,

[00:41:07] if anyone just puts something in front of me

[00:41:09] and tells me if I do this,

[00:41:10] this will be the outcome.

[00:41:11] You know,

[00:41:11] what words of advice would you have to parents

[00:41:13] who are just,

[00:41:14] you know,

[00:41:15] desperate and needing help

[00:41:16] and wanting some sort of comfort and joy?

[00:41:18] Yeah,

[00:41:19] that's really good.

[00:41:20] I know the appeal,

[00:41:21] even as somebody coming out of that system.

[00:41:24] I thought at the age of 14,

[00:41:25] I had all the answers

[00:41:27] for how I was going to raise my kids

[00:41:29] and exactly how I was going to live my life

[00:41:31] for the rest of my life.

[00:41:33] And I think the sad thing is

[00:41:35] that like I've said over and over again,

[00:41:37] that's not the answer.

[00:41:39] You have so many who

[00:41:40] want a black and white answer

[00:41:42] and it's not relying on like,

[00:41:46] okay,

[00:41:46] everybody's going to be the same here.

[00:41:48] I'm going to give you a set of principles for your kids.

[00:41:50] They're going to,

[00:41:50] it's guaranteed they're going to turn out.

[00:41:52] There is no reliance on the Holy Spirit in that way.

[00:41:55] Bill Gothard almost becomes your Holy Spirit

[00:41:57] or another teacher can become your Holy Spirit.

[00:41:59] You're missing the beauty of that,

[00:42:01] the reliance upon the Lord in prayer

[00:42:03] whenever you can't figure out

[00:42:05] what to do with your kids.

[00:42:07] For us,

[00:42:07] it may just be bedtime,

[00:42:09] but it's like whatever the thing is,

[00:42:11] if there's a teacher who's claiming

[00:42:13] to have this element of truth

[00:42:14] that no one else has ever seen before,

[00:42:16] it's not going to be the answer.

[00:42:18] Jesus Christ has all the answers in his word

[00:42:20] and running to that

[00:42:22] and trusting in that,

[00:42:23] resting in the sovereignty of God,

[00:42:25] it comes down to trust

[00:42:27] and we can micromanage our kids' lives.

[00:42:29] I think they're still very young,

[00:42:30] but as they get older,

[00:42:32] I could see the appeal of that as a parent.

[00:42:34] And it's scary walking into a world

[00:42:36] where you see so much around

[00:42:39] that you want to protect your kids from.

[00:42:41] And at the same time,

[00:42:42] it's like we want to point our kids to Jesus

[00:42:44] to show them the beauty of the gospel.

[00:42:47] And hopefully at the end of the day,

[00:42:49] they'll see how beautiful he is

[00:42:52] and they will come to know him too.

[00:42:54] Jeremy,

[00:42:55] how proud are you of your wife

[00:42:58] and doing all the media circuit

[00:43:00] and writing a book

[00:43:01] is as difficult and challenging

[00:43:04] as this has been.

[00:43:06] It's been incredible being by her side for it.

[00:43:08] I mean,

[00:43:09] understand the hours of research

[00:43:11] she did on this.

[00:43:12] She went back and devoured lectures

[00:43:14] and took notes

[00:43:16] and poured herself into this.

[00:43:18] Ginger is one of those people,

[00:43:20] I mean,

[00:43:20] I've never seen someone work as hard as she does

[00:43:23] where she sets her mind to something

[00:43:24] and there's no stopping her

[00:43:26] and she's just like laser focused.

[00:43:29] You know,

[00:43:29] I'm like a little puppy.

[00:43:30] I just get distracted every,

[00:43:32] like I sit down to work

[00:43:34] and, you know,

[00:43:34] butterfly flies

[00:43:35] and I'm like,

[00:43:36] oh.

[00:43:36] What was I doing?

[00:43:37] And she's just like laser focused.

[00:43:39] So kids would go down for bed

[00:43:40] and she would just put hours into this.

[00:43:42] The writing process was grueling.

[00:43:45] It was over a fast timeline

[00:43:47] and now she's been on for the last two weeks

[00:43:50] doing this media circuit

[00:43:52] and it's sometimes six interviews a day

[00:43:54] and she's just a rock star.

[00:43:56] She's been incredible.

[00:43:57] I'm just honored to be by her side.

[00:44:00] Glad that I can support her in this journey.

[00:44:03] I can't tell you how many times

[00:44:05] I've been kind of backstage

[00:44:07] or like hidden away in a room like this

[00:44:09] while she's out there with the crews

[00:44:11] and the interview

[00:44:11] and I'm just sitting here like,

[00:44:13] wow.

[00:44:15] The words that are coming out of her mouth.

[00:44:17] Even at one point,

[00:44:17] I remember one of the interviewers

[00:44:20] stopped mid-interview

[00:44:21] and just went,

[00:44:23] wow,

[00:44:23] you're just so eloquent

[00:44:25] and this is what they do for their life,

[00:44:27] you know?

[00:44:28] Yeah, yeah, right.

[00:44:28] They see it all the time.

[00:44:29] I could not be more proud.

[00:44:30] I mean, I'm just sitting here.

[00:44:31] It's deeper than just the,

[00:44:33] even producing the book.

[00:44:35] It's like the last six and a half years,

[00:44:37] seven years of her journey

[00:44:39] is producing this

[00:44:41] but this is something where she's wrestled.

[00:44:44] Like her whole view of God had to change.

[00:44:46] She came to realize

[00:44:48] almost everything I've been believing is wrong.

[00:44:51] That is such a massive realization.

[00:44:54] That's a hard place to be.

[00:44:54] And the humility of her soul

[00:44:57] to be able to allow herself to be questioned

[00:45:01] and to ask herself questions.

[00:45:02] I mean,

[00:45:04] I could go on

[00:45:05] but it's just been an incredible privilege

[00:45:06] to be along for the journey.

[00:45:08] But I just say,

[00:45:09] I'm so grateful.

[00:45:10] Yeah,

[00:45:11] God has just carried

[00:45:13] through these days,

[00:45:14] even though it's tough some days

[00:45:15] just to speak out against this

[00:45:17] but I know that

[00:45:18] it's what I'm supposed to do

[00:45:19] and what he's called me to do in this season

[00:45:21] and so I'm so grateful for

[00:45:23] all the support Jerry's been.

[00:45:25] I'll just say this too.

[00:45:27] I think people now that they have

[00:45:28] the book in their hands

[00:45:29] are realizing that

[00:45:32] Ginger's written this

[00:45:33] from a place of love.

[00:45:35] Yeah.

[00:45:35] She hasn't written this

[00:45:36] from a place of bitterness

[00:45:37] which as I've seen her in this,

[00:45:40] I could understand

[00:45:41] if she was so angry

[00:45:42] and maybe vindictive

[00:45:43] or something.

[00:45:44] I'm watching her

[00:45:47] pouring her soul into this

[00:45:48] because she cares

[00:45:49] about the people closest to her

[00:45:51] and she really wants

[00:45:54] to help others

[00:45:55] and glorify the name of Christ.

[00:45:57] And so,

[00:45:59] it's just been remarkable to see

[00:46:00] and I think people

[00:46:01] as they're reading the book

[00:46:02] are understanding that.

[00:46:03] They're able to,

[00:46:04] just looking at the comments

[00:46:05] and the messages

[00:46:06] we're getting pouring in

[00:46:07] of people being helped

[00:46:08] and just thanking her

[00:46:09] for writing this.

[00:46:11] Yeah.

[00:46:11] You could see how it would be easy

[00:46:13] to create some straw man arguments

[00:46:15] and just eviscerate

[00:46:16] but you sort of handle truth

[00:46:18] in a very loving,

[00:46:20] gracious way

[00:46:21] and it's from cover to cover.

[00:46:23] That's how the book reads

[00:46:24] and I think that's really helpful

[00:46:26] especially in a day and age

[00:46:27] where everything is volatile,

[00:46:29] everyone's my enemy

[00:46:30] and we just want to sling mud

[00:46:32] at each other.

[00:46:33] I think this is extremely helpful.

[00:46:36] For our listeners

[00:46:38] who may be wondering

[00:46:39] what's the best way

[00:46:41] to be praying for you guys

[00:46:42] especially as you consider

[00:46:44] the interviews,

[00:46:45] the onslaught of attack

[00:46:47] that could very easily come

[00:46:49] with something like this

[00:46:50] because you've opened up a can

[00:46:52] that a lot of people

[00:46:53] wouldn't be willing to do

[00:46:54] or haven't done.

[00:46:56] What are the best way

[00:46:57] our people can keep you in mind

[00:46:59] as the book continues to roll out?

[00:47:02] Appreciate that.

[00:47:03] Yeah, I think just

[00:47:05] it is tough.

[00:47:06] There are days

[00:47:06] where it feels really difficult

[00:47:08] because it's hard to speak about it.

[00:47:11] It's hard to speak about this topic

[00:47:12] and at the same time

[00:47:13] it's the thing I've felt

[00:47:14] most passionate about

[00:47:16] and so just prayer for grace

[00:47:19] in these days

[00:47:20] and also rest

[00:47:21] and strength to continue

[00:47:24] pressing on

[00:47:24] and finishing

[00:47:25] the media side of things

[00:47:27] would be great

[00:47:28] and I'm excited about it

[00:47:30] and at the same time

[00:47:31] it is exhausting

[00:47:32] so for both of those things.

[00:47:35] Well, the book is

[00:47:36] Becoming Free Indeed!

[00:47:37] My Story of Disentangling Faith

[00:47:39] from Fear

[00:47:40] by Ginger Duggar-Vuolo.

[00:47:43] Ginger, Jeremy,

[00:47:44] it's been such a privilege

[00:47:46] to have you guys on again

[00:47:48] and we will be praying for you

[00:47:50] as this book continues to turn out.

[00:47:52] We encourage everybody

[00:47:53] to buy a copy

[00:47:55] and dig into it,

[00:47:56] buy it for friends.

[00:47:57] It's fantastic.

[00:47:59] Thank you guys for

[00:48:00] once again taking the time

[00:48:02] to be with us.

[00:48:02] Thanks so much.

[00:48:05] Candid is a podcast

[00:48:06] from Leading the Way

[00:48:07] with Dr. Michael Youssef.

[00:48:09] Don't forget to connect

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[00:48:20] While there,

[00:48:21] please leave a review.

[00:48:22] It does help people to find us.

[00:48:25] As always,

[00:48:26] thank you for listening to

[00:48:27] and sharing this episode.

[00:48:30] Thank you.