Apologetics for a Changing Culture: Sean McDowell | Episode 285 - part 2

[00:00:05] Hello and welcome to Candid, where we never settle for less than the truth. I'm your host, Dr. Jonathan Youssef. Each week we'll tackle tough issues, answer your hard questions, and take a candid look at the Christian faith. If you're just joining us, this is the second part of our enlightening conversation with Dr. Sean McDowell, professor at Biola University, podcast host, and author of Apologetics for an Ever-Changing Culture.

[00:00:34] In our previous episode, we discussed the surprising 22% increase in Bible sales and what that might tell us about shifting cultural attitudes towards faith and spirituality. Sean shared his insights on how we may be witnessing not just a momentary change, but potentially a deeper spiritual curiosity emerging in our culture.

[00:00:59] Today, we'll explore how Christians can meaningfully engage with spiritually curious people who might be hesitant about traditional religious frameworks. We'll also discuss how apologetics should evolve to meet the challenges of our digital age. I hope you will listen and prepare yourself to have thoughtful conversations about the Christian faith. Let's rejoin our conversation with Dr. Sean McDowell.

[00:01:27] Sean, how we communicate the gospel has, and I think we've talked a little bit about this, has really changed in the past two decades. I mean, even thinking about the cultural shifts that have come in, what are some of the strategies that Christians adopt for evangelism?

[00:01:46] And we can even talk a little bit about how do we engage on digital platforms without coming across as, you know, preachy or heavy-handed or, you know, what's sort of the stuff that you guys are wrestling with as you think about all that? I think we have to adapt to each platform according to what's unique about that platform.

[00:02:08] And so Twitter slash X is going to be a little different than Instagram and TikTok, which might be different than Rumble and, say, YouTube. So that's sometimes people are like, I'm just going to do all these platforms, make a video, drop it on all of them. And people know that you're not engaged in that platform according to kind of the rules that that platform is set up for. So I use TikTok. I use Twitter.

[00:02:36] I think my favorite platform really is YouTube. And, I mean, people are looking at YouTube now for news. Viewing is passing and surpassing Netflix. I just heard this morning. I started a channel in 2010, but I really started about five years ago, and I wish I had started before then. And what I like about YouTube is there was a guy who started Bobby Conway about a decade ago, and he called it the One Minute Apologist.

[00:03:05] And people wanted these quick one-minute YouTube videos. Now people are watching long-form stuff and content. Hence, Joe Rogan, three, four, a while ago, he had like a five-hour conversation. I mean, my goodness. Yeah. I don't even have stamina to do that. People are staying with it. It's crazy. Stamina, that's right. So just using YouTube, and you've got to figure out – this is such a big conversation, but I think people who do it well figure out who's my audience.

[00:03:34] How do I best reach them? What kind of content are they looking for? And so for me, my approach is just I interview a lot of Christian experts on near-death experiences, on the resurrection, the evidence for God. But I try to regularly have conversations with people who just see the world differently. Now, sometimes I have debates. I invited Michael Shermer on, who's one of the leading skeptics in the world. We had a two-hour debate on morality and consciousness.

[00:04:03] It was cordial and respectful. It was like fun. We were going back and forth. But that's kind of the exception for me. More often, I just sit down with somebody and ask questions and lean in and try to like model for people how you just have a conversation with somebody who sees the world differently. Without getting angry, without stereotyping. And I found a good audience of people respond to that.

[00:04:29] Now, if you want to get views, that is very different than really wanting to reach people. Yeah. No, you're right. Those are not the same things. And I see a lot of Christian creators who are trying to provoke and shock and insult. And their channels are much bigger than mine. But I think you lose more than you gain for the kingdom by falling into that trap. And I think Christians need to avoid it.

[00:04:55] So we need to be different, not only in our content, but also in the way we use these mediums and the way we talk about people and treat people. The medium and the message, the way we engage it must be different. And Christian apologists don't always do that. Yeah. This is kind of a subject matter that I'm not like great at, but that's why I'm going to ask you, because like you, I want to have the experts on.

[00:05:22] But I mean, so obviously, artificial intelligence is kind of the buzz thing at the moment. And then you have through AI, deep fake misinformation abounds. I mean, it's hard to know what's real and what's not real for a lot of people. How can they discern truth from error? And I don't mean like theologically. I'm just saying what's being presented out there.

[00:05:49] How should we be working towards identifying misinformation and from that capacity? That's a great question. And it's one that's evolving and changing all the time. I just saw an article this morning on AI about how certain AI systems, not only either they're programmed intentionally or not, but like competing in chess.

[00:06:12] And then when the AI is losing, it's supposed to find a way to still win, even if it has to cheat to do so. Where did my queen go? I don't know if that's a reflection of human fallenness intentionally or unintentionally built into it.

[00:06:30] But now so many of these are like not only just hallucinations that, you know, so-called accidentally have false information, but are programmed in a way to accomplish the end, even if it involves propagating false information. Yeah, interesting. And so that means it's like doubly concerning.

[00:06:53] Plus, we're at the point with video now, at least to the naked eye, you almost cannot tell what is genuine and what's not. So one thing I try to do and man, I can't say I do this perfectly, Jonathan. But when I hear something to see something, I have a voice in my head almost every time that says double check. Yeah. Double check. Oh, that's a good. That's a good thing to have. Read another perspective. So I've cited a couple of times.

[00:07:22] I read the New York Times every morning, in part because I want a different perspective on issues that I probably would naturally hold. And it's the most influential newspaper. And I read the Wall Street Journal consistently. But then I listen to many more conservative podcasts. And I'm always comparing and contrasting back and forth to just try to make sure I hear both sides on issues before I land on something.

[00:07:46] You know, my dad told me growing up, he goes, if something sounds too good to be true, it's probably too good to be true. If something sounds too like just I don't know how I frame this with news. It just fits your narrative too much. You want to believe it's true. It's probably not true. Double check it. So I think that's the best thing Christians can do. So honestly, Jonathan, I've had a few people in the past few months, a few people have asked about my podcast.

[00:08:14] Like they'll bring their phone up and it's just it's probably somebody a little older. They're like, you know, how do I follow podcasts? And I'm like, well, I'll find it for you. And I pull up people's podcasts and I just look at it. And it's all podcasts of people that tell them what they want to hear. It's like an echo chamber. Echo chamber. Yes. Right. So listen to both sides. Read both sides. Pause before you assume that something is true. Get more information.

[00:08:44] Read things carefully. And then we still might be fooled. But that does the best to minimize it. You know, the Bible says there's a proverb that says the first to speak in court sounds right until the cross examination begins. So cross examine even our own ideas and beliefs. You wonder just with the increase of the deconstruction movement, how many people were doing that?

[00:09:08] They were doing an echo chamber of things and not seeing the full picture, not asking questions of what they believed or what they were being told. And so then they kind of fell down a path. And that could be for a spurious faith. That could be for deconstruction. And it's I think what you present is is right on. Do the investigation. I have a friend that says all truth is Christ truth. So there's really nothing for us to be afraid of.

[00:09:36] So don't think, oh, if I go to that website, if I go to that news source, they're going to brainwash me and I'm going to walk away, you know, a completely different person. Just slow it down. You know, it's this isn't craziness. You know, let's look at things from the different perspectives and come to a more helpful conclusion, which I think is this is great advice. Hey, can I can I jump in on this one? Please.

[00:10:02] I agree with you, but I'm actually more inclined to blame the church. And here's what I mean by this. Yes, there's probably a lot of deconstructors who haven't looked at both sides. But how many churches actually model saying, you know what, let's look at an atheist argument fairly and steel man it and respond. Let's look at a different theological perspective and steel man it and respond. That's the exception. We don't do that well.

[00:10:31] And so deconstructors come across people who view the world differently and freak out and are like, I've never heard this before. What else has the church been keeping from me? And frankly, I don't blame them many times for reacting the way that we do. So if we're not modeling this in the church, my goodness, why would we expect anybody to act differently?

[00:10:51] And we don't because you said because we're afraid and we're not really convinced of like what Colossians 2, 3 says that in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. If we believe that and we had confidence it was true, we wouldn't be threatened by ideas that challenge what we believe. Yeah, that's exactly right. Right. You know, it's interesting that we kind of take this little shift here because the reality is younger generations really are looking for authenticity.

[00:11:19] You know, they're tired of kind of being given talking points and all this sort of thing. And they want to see somebody who's willing to say, I'm happy to say that, you know, there is absolutely an argument that goes against, you know, what position we hold. And I'm happy to engage with it. Let's talk about it and let's have that authentic conversation with it and allow whatever the truth is to rise to the top. But you're right. Churches have not done a good job of engaging with that.

[00:11:48] They've kind of, in a sense, hidden from it, which then implies you're not trustworthy. And I don't know if your message is going to fulfill what you say it's going to fulfill. Yeah. You've spoken about your doubts that have led to deeper faith.

[00:12:06] I wonder if you could kind of share some moments where you were really wrestling with some of those deeper issues and what actually came to be your foundation and what strengthened and fortified all that. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, like you grew up with an influential, famous public father who's a Christian leader.

[00:12:29] And my dad specifically, Josh McDowell, the world of apologetics, spent his life writing books and defending the Christian faith. But when I was, I think I was 19 or 20 years old, just had a big period of doubt in my life and needed to tell my dad what was going on. Once we were at a little, we were at a restaurant in Breckenridge, Colorado. And I guess this was around 95, I think.

[00:12:54] And I just said, dad, I want to know what's true, but I'm not sure I'm convinced Christianity is true. And he looked at me and he goes, son, I think that's great. And I remember thinking, are you actually listening to me? Yeah, that's right. Did you hear what I said? And he goes, yeah. He goes, I heard you. He goes, you can't live on my beliefs and convictions. You got to find what you think is true and live it. He goes, look, if you seek after truth, I'm confident you'll follow Jesus because Jesus is the truth.

[00:13:22] And he said, only reject what you've learned growing up if you're convinced it's not true. You know, your mom and I will love you no matter what. You know, it sounds in some ways, I don't want to over dramatize that moment, but it was very significant for me on a lot of levels. I think emotionally and intellectually. And it also gave me permission to say, you know what, I can have questions. And God and my parents are threatened by my questions, which is something, by the way, I almost never hear from people who deconstruct.

[00:13:52] They have a very different experience than I had. Yes, yes. Sadly. And so, you know, am I certain that Christianity is true now? No, I'm confident. It makes sense. I actually have more confidence now than I did 5, 10, 20 years ago. The more I study Christianity, look at the evidence for the God, the more I look around me and I just think that Christianity makes sense on a moral, existential, intellectual level.

[00:14:21] But I do have questions and doubts. Sometimes I'm like, okay, all right, genocide in the Old Testament. Okay, God, why? Like, why don't you answer that prayer? God, do I really understand the Trinity? I mean, I still have questions and doubts. But honestly, Jonathan, this is what motivates me to study and research and think and just read another book.

[00:14:46] I don't think if I had questions and doubts like that, I'd be as motivated and able to equip the church in the way that I do. I have a friend who's a pastor. He says the gift of faith. He lost his job and he's like, God will come through. I'm like, how do you know? Maybe God wants you to suffer. He's like, God is good. He'll come through. And he did. And for a while, I was like, why don't I have that faith?

[00:15:06] And I realized I was like, oh, my goodness, he doesn't write 600 page books on the evidence for Christianity because he's not just plagued is too strong, but not bothered by questions and doubts the way that I am. So I just encourage listeners. Doubt is not the opposite of belief. Unbelief is the opposite of belief. You can believe something and have doubts and questions.

[00:15:35] That's in part what it means to believe. But if you're 60 percent confident something's true, how do you get to 65, 80, 90, 95 percent? That's a question we don't often ask. And that's an important one. Thinking down that line, what would you advise parents who, you know, their kids ask a really difficult question and they just think, oh, I don't know. I'm not equipped for this, you know, and can get hesitant.

[00:16:02] What's sort of your advice to not allow them to kind of, I think, where you were going with that, where you just want to shut it down. Don't ask that kind of question. And then the kids, you know, that's going to brew something inside them. But how do you equip them to is it is it just their own study? Is it go and find the answer for yourself? Go take your kid with you. What's kind of the process that you would recommend? The first thing is to just say, wow, what a great question.

[00:16:31] I am so proud of you for using your mind to think about your faith. God is big enough for your questions. I hope this isn't the first question you ask. And you keep asking questions like this your whole life. Now, why start there? There was some interesting research a few years ago out of Fuller Theological Seminary. Jack Clark and Kara Powell in a study called Sticky Faith.

[00:16:57] And they said kids don't leave their faith because of questions or doubts, but because of unexpressed questions and unexpressed doubt. So just modeling that I can believe in God and I'm not threatened by your questions. And this is okay. And it's part of the Christian life. Puts a kid at ease and gives them permission to use their mind and ask great questions.

[00:17:24] So step number one, just affirm that it's okay and good to have questions. Second, is I always want to know what's driving this question? Is it really just intellectual? If so, fine. Or is there something deeper going on? And then what is that? Is there an insecurity? Is there a moral issue? Is there a relational breakdown? Did they see hypocrisy? I mean, there's a million things.

[00:17:50] You know, the Bible talks about how the purposes in a man's heart are deep and a person of wisdom draws it out. So I want to just ask questions and say, hey, tell me why you asked that question. When did you first think of that question? Does that question bother you? I mean, I had a student in my office three times. He's come to see me at Biola. And I was like, hey, we had time for one more question before class. And I said, well, which one bothers you the most? He goes, oh, these don't bother me. I'm just really interested. I'm trying to make sense of it.

[00:18:20] But that's very different than other students who come in and are like emotionally and relationally bothered by their questions. So step number one, affirm what a great question. Step number two, just ask questions and try to get to the source of tell me why you thought of this. And then ask questions back. Like I might say, you know what? If you were going to venture an answer, what would you say? Just like you said to me earlier, Jonathan, you said, if I forced you to give a response.

[00:18:51] And I did. And by the way, one of my tricks in teaching is students would say, well, I don't know. And I'd respond. I'd say, well, if you did know, what would you say? And the majority of time, then they'll give a response. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's it. I'm not kidding you. So just say, if you had to venture an answer, what would you say? And then if you don't really know, you just say, you know what? I need to think about this a little bit more. At first thought, if I had to give an answer, here's what I would say. But let me do a little research and get back to you.

[00:19:20] And then you come back to them and you continue the conversation. And you say, do you have any other questions? And if they say no, you say, you know what? Next time you do, let me know. I really enjoy talking about this. And I hope we can always talk together about these kinds of tough questions. Yeah, it's an approachability. And then you set up a culture of every time I do have a question, I know I can go to mom,

[00:19:45] dad, teacher, you know, whoever this person may be in the life of this young person. All right. Apologetics, looking into the future. Getting out your crystal ball in your new age format. Just kidding. It's a joke. What's coming up ahead? What are sort of the challenges that are, you know, we've dealt with a lot of sort of

[00:20:11] sexual revolution, revival stuff coming up, transgenderism, a lot of that sort of identity stuff. Is there more of that coming? Is there going to be a reaction to something? What do you kind of, again, you're in the pressure cooker. You got to give an answer. Well, so I'm not a prophet. And just for the record, I work at a nonprofit organization. That's right. There was my joke back at you for what it's worth.

[00:20:41] You know, if I had to guess, I would say a couple of things. I think what we're seeing with artificial intelligence, we're just seeing the beginning of this. So I think how it's going to shift issues of sexuality. If we thought the Internet in the 90s changed how hooked people are in pornography, I don't think we have any idea how artificial intelligence is going to shift the sexual brokenness that's coming.

[00:21:10] Because for 30 years, maybe since the 90s, it's been if somebody can think of some kind of twisted sexual scene, you can find it. Now you can just type it in and create it yourself. That is a kind of shift I'm not sure we've come to grips with. So I think that issue is coming. I think we'll still see issues like, you know, polyparenting.

[00:21:38] What is that going to look like for the church when, you know, polyamory, which has been pushed and promoted in New York Times magazines and others when that starts in the next five to ten years to be considered somewhat normative? How are we going to address that as a church? I think that issue is coming. Sexual brokenness is not going anywhere. Islam continues to advance.

[00:22:05] I mean, there's some studies that show by 2070 it could be the largest religion in the world. Now, those are based on certain metrics that have to continue. No one really knows. But Islam, hands down. Yeah. Especially Europe for sure. Yeah. And beyond. That is probably the apologetic issue that Christians need to be equipped with. New York Times, just their daily podcast had a story about a woman who was married and had

[00:22:34] an AI companion and she started spending 20 to 30 hours a week with this AI companion. $200 a month. In that article, they said teachers used to say this was an exception. Now, like three to five percent of students have these kinds of AI companions they're interacting with. Well, what does that mean for our understanding of God, for our spiritual life, for our self identity, for our relationships?

[00:23:02] That issue we're just seeing the beginning of. So those are a few that come to mind. But I just encourage people, there's timely issues, but there's timeless ones. So timely issues might be polyparenting. It might be AI companions. It's certainly Islam. But timeless issues, such as the problem of evil, are not going anywhere. They'll manifest themselves differently.

[00:23:32] But is there a God? Does my life have purpose? Is there a soul? Is there a life after death? Those big issues tied to the deepest yearning of the human heart aren't going anywhere, even if the cultural issues shift. Yeah, I think it's important that Christians are able to be engaged in both spheres. I'm not sure if you would agree. I mean, we need to know a little bit about what's coming towards us.

[00:24:02] I think Christians would benefit in gaining understanding of artificial intelligence so it doesn't get so far out ahead of us. But it's the timeless ones, as you said, that I think we need to be just have down great biblical answers that are helpful because that's often where people are coming from. The problem of pain, the problem of evil and dealing with that. I think that's a good word for us. Anything else you want to share with our audience? You know what?

[00:24:31] I'll just make a final comment. I think you're right. We need to be aware for timeless and timely issues. But I don't want people to think that they have to be professional cultural critics to engage their neighbors. I just and I know you're not implying that. And I just saw a study. Oh, where was it? I thought it was in the UK. But don't totally sign me on that. It was the majority of people, if invited to church by a friend, would actually go. Yeah, it is from the UK, I think.

[00:25:01] Yeah. If all of us would just see ourselves as ambassadors for Christ, which the Bible teaches, asking thoughtful questions, building relationships with people, humbling ourselves and trying to grow and learn. Man, you know, it says they'll know us by our love. Are Christians really known by our love today? I don't know that we are.

[00:25:28] But in our increasingly broken, partisan, divided, angry age, it's like just leaning into our Christian faith makes us rebels and radicals and stand out in a different way. When everyone's trying to provoke, everyone's trying to shout, everyone's trying to get views, and Christians just love their neighbors and show kindness and care for the poor. It's like our secular culture is waking up to the need for Christian virtues.

[00:25:58] Why don't we just lean into it and live it out individually, stronger, and double our efforts? I think that would make a huge difference. Yeah. It's strange to say it's countercultural to do those things. But it is actually what we're called to do. And so I think you're right. I think that's a great parting word for us. Sean, it's been such a pleasure to have a few minutes with you.

[00:26:27] The book is Apologetics for an Ever-Changing Culture. We'll put additional information in the show notes. The podcast is Think Biblically. And Dr. Sean McDowell, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations. This is fun. Thanks, Sean. As we conclude our conversation with Dr. Sean McDowell, his final thoughts offer a compelling reminder of what truly matters in our witness as Christians.

[00:26:55] In an age of division, anger, and provocation, simply living out our faith through love, kindness, and care for others becomes revolutionary. While it's important to understand cultural trends and be equipped to address timely issues like artificial intelligence, Islam, and changing views on relationships,

[00:27:19] Sean reminds us that timeless questions about God, purpose, and meaning remain at the heart of the human experience. I'm struck by his insight that in our digital age, when everyone is trying to provoke reactions or gain views, Christians can stand out by embodying the virtues our secular age is beginning to recognize it desperately needs.

[00:27:47] Thank you, Dr. Sean McDowell, for your wisdom and insights. His book, Apologetics for an Ever-Changing Culture, addresses many of the topics we've discussed today. You can learn more about Sean and his resources in our show notes, including his podcast, Think Biblically. I'm Jonathan Youssef, and this is Candid Conversations. Thank you for listening. Until next time, may we all be ambassadors for Christ through our words and actions.

[00:28:17] If you found this conversation helpful, please share it with someone who might benefit. Subscribe and never miss an episode. And leave a review so others can find us. We'll see you next time.